Trivia: Genuine/sensible journeys, for which most (fast) results are via non-permitted routes

[yorkie]

I'm looking for examples of sensible/genuine journeys customers may wish to take, where many/most (fast) timetabled journey opportunities are via non-permitted routes.

A good example of this is Church Fenton to Micklefield; this was an easy journey to make, but can no longer be made for most hours of most days, except in the evening, if tickets are purchased from a train company. The only way to get an itinerary is to use a split ticket provider, as the journey would either need to go via Cross Gates/Garforth/Leeds to the west, or via York to the north.

There should be a positive easement for this journey; without one, I suspect most Guards would allow passengers to travel via a circuitous route. Hopefully now I've posted it on here, one will be introduced as quickly as negative easements are introduced

Does anyone have any other examples?

 

[greyman42]

I am astonished that you can have issues travelling from Church Fenton to Micklefield. How did this come about?

 

[Bread & cheese]

Wokingham to Surbiton

The main permitted route is via Chertsey (usual changing points are Virginia Water and Weybridge).
There is another permitted route via Ascot and Ash Vale, but this is slow.
However it is often faster to go by other routes: via Guildford and Woking, via Farnborough North and Farnborough Main, via North Camp and Ash Vale.
A Wokingham to Surbiton single is £14.50. Between 08:29 and 09:30 on a weekday the National Rail app produces one journey at this price, and four journeys by non-permitted routes at higher prices.

 

[yorkie]

I am astonished that you can have issues travelling from Church Fenton to Micklefield. How did this come about?

Northern 'fast' services to Blackpool generally only call at Church Fenton between York and Leeds (some may call additonally, e.g. at Cross Gates at peak times) except late in the evening.

York to Leeds stoppers generally only serve the outlying Leeds suburban area stations, usually omitting Church Fenton.

Exceptions apply on Sundays, during engineering works, late evenings (and potentially early mornings) etc.

The service pattern is actually pretty good; all that is needed is an easement allowing doubling back. Few people wish to travel from Church Fenton to Micklefield/Garforth, so there doesn't need to be a direct train, but some people will do, and it makes no sense for train companies to tell customers they have to book through third party websites, rather than their own!

 

[STINT47]

Beeston and Attenborough to Chesterfield and or Sheffield.

It's often quicker and for me more preferable to travel via Derby than Nottingham but via Derby isn't a permitted route. It used to be but it was removed a few years ago for reasons that remain unclear.

Although not permitted I have never had any staff reject the ticket when going via Derby, which I have continued to do.

 

[miklcct]

Anything long distance on the South West Main Line to Vauxhall, where the sensible doubling-back is explicitly forbidden by a negative easement.

 

[infobleep]

Anything long distance on the South West Main Line to Vauxhall, where the sensible doubling-back is explicitly forbidden by a negative easement.

That's is just along the lines of what I was thinking, I was thinking Woking to Clapham Junction in the peaks, where travelling via London Waterloo is often faster and more frequent.

For example, between 7 am and 8 am there are 2 direct trains. One is fast and the other slow. 7 other journey opportunities are slightly faster than the slow but you need to travel via Waterloo so no ticket shows up on National Rail Enquiries.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Berwick and Glynde; Plumpton and Cooksbridge

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well there's Chester-Norwich, where the only public walk-on fare is "Not via London".
While all the faster journeys are via London....
There are Advances via London, but at an uncertain price.

That's probably because of the reduced journey times on the WCML in recent years (2008), favouring longer IC routes over shorter but slower Regional ones.
This sort of thing will increase significantly when HS2 services start, especially with a direct interchange with the GWML and Crossrail at Old Oak Common.

 

[Watershed]

A good example of this is Church Fenton to Micklefield; this was an easy journey to make, but can no longer be made for most hours of most days, except in the evening, if tickets are purchased from a train company. The only way to get an itinerary is to use a split ticket provider, as the journey would either need to go via Cross Gates/Garforth/Leeds to the west, or via York to the north.

It's unclear to me why there would need to be an easement in order to travel via York or Leeds? Surely doing so is permitted by virtue of the 'direct trains to and from common Routeing Points' rule?

Changing at Cross Gates or Garforth is obviously more problematic, as it's more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route and they're not Routeing Points.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Hall Road to Wigan. It is a quicker journey with a single change of trains via Southport, but it is not a permitted route. Instead you are expected to change at either Moorfields and Liverpool Lime Street, or at Sandhills and Kirkby.

——————-

“Customers travelling from Hall Road, Blundellsands & Crosby, Waterloo (Merseyside) or Seaforth & Litherland to or via Wigan may travel via Southport. This easement applies in both directions.”

There you go, RDG, I have written it for you! How long before it appears in the Routeing Guide?

 

[yorkie]

It's unclear to me why there would need to be an easement in order to travel via York or Leeds? Surely doing so is permitted by virtue of the 'direct trains to and from common Routeing Points' rule?

Changing at Cross Gates or Garforth is obviously more problematic, as it's more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route and they're not Routeing Points.

Micklefield, Garforth, East Garforth, Cross Gates and Leeds are all members of the Leeds Routeing Group.

Church Fenton is associated with York and Leeds Group.

Doubling back within Leeds Group isn't permitted (without an easement, or any other reason to allow it) if the origin or destination is a member of the group.

 

[Paul Kelly]

That's is just along the lines of what I was thinking, I was thinking Woking to Clapham Junction in the peaks, where travelling via London Waterloo is often faster and more frequent.

I would say that's a different example from the Vauxhall one, though, for two reasons:

• Doubling back from Waterloo to Clapham Junction is specifically permitted by a positive easement; the main problem is that the fares from Woking are all routed "NOT VIA LONDON".
• Doubling back from Waterloo to Vauxhall is arguably not even covered by the routeing guide (and thus the negative easement is questionable), since it's all within the same fares group.

 

[gnolife]

Berwick and Glynde; Plumpton and Cooksbridge

I'm not seeing what the problem with for a journey between Berwick and Glynde - the Southern website is cheerfully quoting me the £4 off-peak day return between the two, on a direct train

 

[Surreytraveller]

I'm not seeing what the problem with for a journey between Berwick and Glynde - the Southern website is cheerfully quoting me the £4 off-peak day return between the two, on a direct train

Maybe the timetable's changed. It was alternate trains calling at one, but not both, of those stations

 

[Watershed]

Following on from this thread, there are plenty of examples from 'the north' to south Wales where it's fastest to go via London, but it's not a permitted route.

 

[Springs Branch]

Hall Road to Wigan. It is a quicker journey with a single change of trains via Southport, but it is not a permitted route. Instead you are expected to change at either Moorfields and Liverpool Lime Street, or at Sandhills and Kirkby.

——————-

“Customers travelling from Hall Road, Blundellsands & Crosby, Waterloo (Merseyside) or Seaforth & Litherland to or via Wigan may travel via Southport. This easement applies in both directions.”

There you go, RDG, I have written it for you! How long before it appears in the Routeing Guide?

It's a pity that sometime over the last couple of years a handy easement on Liverpool Stations to Wigan Stations tickets has disappeared. This used to allow travel via Southport, and in the past journey planners would happily offer itineraries that way.

Now replaced with a specific negative easement making the route via Southport verboten:-

Customers travelling from Wigan Wallgate or Wigan North Western to Liverpool Lime Street, Liverpool Central, James Street Liverpool, Moorfields, Sandhills or Birkenhead Hamilton Square may not go via Southport. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions.

Otherwise potentially you could have bought a (cheaper) Liverpool Stations to Wigan Stations ticket, started / finished short at Hall Road etc. and travelled the quick way via Southport.

 

[Howardh]

I'm not sure whether my preferred route is "permitted" or not, but to get to Daisy Hill from Bolton I always get routed towards Wigan with a long wait at Hindley, when it may be faster to go via Salford Crescent where if there's a wait then you have shelter, toilet etc - much better than Hindley. Also would the ticket routed that way (change at Hindley) allow you to go to Wigan to wait with beter facilities?

Slightly academic though as a bus/train combo ticket makes my preferred route permissable!!

 

[Kite159]

I'm not sure whether my preferred route is "permitted" or not, but to get to Daisy Hill from Bolton I always get routed towards Wigan with a long wait at Hindley, when it may be faster to go via Salford Crescent where if there's a wait then you have shelter, toilet etc - much better than Hindley. Also would the ticket routed that way (change at Hindley) allow you to go to Wigan to wait with beter facilities?

Slightly academic though as a bus/train combo ticket makes my preferred route permissable!!

A shame the Wigan - Leeds trains don't call at Hindley to allow your journey time to be less as they would give a decent ~ 11 minute connection from the Alderley Edge - Southport services.

I suspect a Hindley call would be used far more than the 2tph at Hag Fold.

 

[Trainbike46]

Belfast-Ipswich via Cairnryan and London isn't permitted, so booking engines won't issue the ticket (and there are no other routes that can be made in a single day!)

 

[Howardh]

A shame the Wigan - Leeds trains don't call at Hindley to allow your journey time to be less as they would give a decent ~ 11 minute connection from the Alderley Edge - Southport services.

I suspect a Hindley call would be used far more than the 2tph at Hag Fold.

Probably Bolton > Atherton/Hag Fold/Daisy Hill by rail isn't a particularly popular choice, there are bus alternatives which, frankly, end up beign quicker. But for the likes of me that prefer rail, especially getting to the football at Daisy Hill, it's a difficult journey!!

Lostock - Bolton - Hindley (via Lostock!) then Daisy Hill; the alternative Lostock - Bolton - Salford Crescent - Daisy Hill seems preferable.

 

[Watershed]

Belfast-Ipswich via Cairnryan and London isn't permitted, so booking engines won't issue the ticket (and there are no other routes that can be made in a single day!)

It is permitted, but there's no cross London marker (Maltese cross) on the Cairnryan fares, so you won't be able to get an itinerary via London, unless it involves crossing London at a time where the industry data says the Tube is "closed", and you therefore have to make your own way between Terminals.

 

[Trainbike46]

It is permitted, but there's no cross London marker (Maltese cross) on the Cairnryan fares, so you won't be able to get an itinerary via London, unless it involves crossing London at a time where the industry data says the Tube is "closed", and you therefore have to make your own way between Terminals.

The effect is the same though, isn't it? Because of a restriction on routing (the absence of the maltese cross), a journey that could be made cannot have a ticket sold. it's easy to fix with split-ticketing, but shouldn't really rely on that

 

[Watershed]

The effect is the same though, isn't it? Because of a restriction on routing (the absence of the maltese cross), a journey that could be made cannot have a ticket sold. it's easy to fix with split-ticketing, but shouldn't really rely on that

There are still some itineraries available, just not very many. You'd be hard-pressed to make the journey in a day either way - which is why the decision to make the single an Anytime Day Single is spectacularly ridiculous.

 

[MKB]

Liverpool to Stone (Staffs) via Stafford is not valid on "Any Permitted Route" tickets and only on more expensive "via Stafford" tickets, despite often being considerably faster via Stafford. (At least one booking engine will however sell the cheaper fares via Stafford, but most apply the Routeing Guide rules correctly.)

 

[Watershed]

Liverpool to Stone (Staffs) via Stafford is not valid on "Any Permitted Route" tickets and only on more expensive "via Stafford" tickets, despite often being considerably faster via Stafford. (At least one booking engine will however sell the cheaper fares via Stafford, but most apply the Routeing Guide rules correctly.)

Good point, there's quite a few of these hanging around. It's generally because Stone is clustered with Stoke for most long distance fares, but obviously Stoke fares are cheaper as they expect you to get there via Alsager or Macclesfield.

 

[A S Leib]

Belfast-Ipswich via Cairnryan and London isn't permitted, so booking engines won't issue the ticket (and there are no other routes that can be made in a single day!)

Has it ever been possible to get a single ferry / rail ticket from Belfast to the Netherlands?

 

[Trainbike46]

Has it ever been possible to get a single ferry / rail ticket from Belfast to the Netherlands?

Not as far as I'm aware

The journey is definitely possible as any of:
-Belfast-Birkenhead (liverpool ferry terminal)-Birkenhead hamilton square-Liverpool lime street-London Euston-Liverpool street-Harwich-Hook of Holland (ferry)
-Belfast-Cairnryan-Ayr-Glasgow central-London Euston (caledonian sleeper)-Liverpool street-Harwich-Hook of Holland (ferry)
-Belfast-Birkenhead (liverpool ferry terminal)-Birkenhead hamilton square-Liverpool lime street-London Euston-St Pancras-Rotterdam/Amsterdam (eurostar)
-Belfast-Cairnryan-Ayr-Glasgow central-London Euston (caledonian sleeper)-St Pancras-Rotterdam/Amsterdam (eurostar)
But all of those require at least one ticket split, and the liverpool route requires 2 splits

 

[freddie1729]

Eastleigh to London Waterloo is often quicker doubling back at Southampton Airport Parkway.

Cambridge to Winchmore Hill is often quicker doubling back at Finsbury Park or even Kings Cross. There are even two ticket options of "NOT VIA LONDON" and "✠ ANY PERMITTED" despite the fact you can never go via London because of the routing.

 

[Merseysider]

Liverpool to Lancaster (etc) should be valid via Manchester, but isn’t.

The first two journeys of the day (using 31st August, arriving 05:51 and 07:19) both require a change in Manchester. The XC journey planner, and presumably others, won’t show any journeys until the 08:08 arrival changing in Preston.

The final journey opportunity of the day (arriving 23:32) could be a simple 1 change in Manchester, but this journey is only offered via a convoluted walk across Warrington at 10pm (no thanks!) and another change in Preston.

On Sundays (using 28th August) almost half of the journey opportunities fastjp identifies are via Manchester.

The Off Peak fares from LIV/MAN are almost identical to Lancaster.