Trivia:Intercity Routes which have more air travel than train travel

[thenorthern]

I am trying to work out which cities have domestic more air travel between them than train travel. For example Aberdeen Airport has 42000 passengers to Norwich, 24000 to Humberside and 21000 to Durham Tees Valley which is more than the train will have likely have from the stations serving that area.

At the same time there are around 3 million flight passengers per year from London to Edinburgh which is a lot but is probably less than the amount that take the train given that there is more than 1 station in the area someone may have got the train from (i.e. someone traveling from Livingston to Watford would fly with an Edinburgh to London Heathrow ticket but would probably have a Livingston North to Watford Junction ticket rather than an Edinburgh to London Kings Cross ticket if they went on the train.)

Are there any other routes where domestic flights will have more passengers than train travel. Of course anything involving Northern Ireland or an island location is likely to have more flight passengers than train passengers.

 

[DarloRich]

you reckon there are 21000 people using Darlo International? I doubt there are 2000 now. I bet there are more than 21000 journeys form Kings Cross to Darlington every year.

 

[thenorthern]

you reckon there are 21000 people using Darlo International? I doubt there are 2000 now. I bet there are more than 21000 journeys form Kings Cross to Darlington every year.

Latest figures for Durham Tees Valley show that last year 21,189 used the airport to get to Aberdeen, admittedly I would imagine most of those are oil workers but still I would think its more than use the train.

Here are the CAA figures:
http://www.caa.co.uk/uploadedFiles/..._Route_Analysis_by_Each_Reporting_Airport.pdf

 

[DarloRich]

Latest figures for Durham Tees Valley show that last year 21,189 used the airport to get to Aberdeen, admittedly I would imagine most of those are oil workers but still I would think its more than use the train.

Here are the CAA figures:
http://www.caa.co.uk/uploadedFiles/..._Route_Analysis_by_Each_Reporting_Airport.pdf

WOW- they are doing better than expected! Nothing like it used to be - No London service now. :cry:

There is still a lot of train based travel from Teesside to Aberdeen for onward travel to the rigs. I know several who do it on a regular basis. I know they don't fly as they have missed the flights in the past because of weather and ended up on the train. Couldn't say which wins overall mind.

 

[thenorthern]

Bristol to Scotland I think more people fly than take the train.

WOW- they are doing better than expected! Nothing like it used to be - No London service now. :cry:

There is still a lot of train based travel from Teesside to Aberdeen for onward travel to the rigs. I know several who do it on a regular basis. I know they don't fly as they have missed the flights in the past because of weather and ended up on the train. Couldn't say which wins overall mind.

The main route from Teesside Airport is to Amsterdam which carried 100,000 last year. The removal of the London flights I think was an issue.

 

[DarloRich]

Bristol to Scotland I think more people fly than take the train.



The main route from Teesside Airport is to Amsterdam which carried 100,000 last year. The removal of the London flights I think was an issue.

KLM have stubbornly refused to close down the route

 

[thenorthern]

With KLM their city hopper flights from airports on the East Coast to Amsterdam Schiphol are a nice little earner, I know that the busiest routes from Southend, Norwich, Humberside and Teesside are all to Amesterdam Schiphol. Given KLM's choice of destinations from Schiphol its a way of getting people to use KLM as they can offer through tickets to most major countries in the world.

Back to the question though other than the extremely short services to Scottish Islands what is the shortest domestic flight in the UK between cities? I know there was once a Plymouth to Bristol flight back in 2006 but I can't think of any today.

 

[Liam]

Back to the question though other than the extremely short services to Scottish Islands what is the shortest domestic flight in the UK between cities? I know there was once a Plymouth to Bristol flight back in 2006 but I can't think of any today

Between cities, so not including places like Campbeltown, Isle of Man etc., Glasgow International-Belfast City is 100 miles. On the British mainland its probably Heathrow-Manchester.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Between cities, so not including places like Campbeltown, Isle of Man etc., Glasgow International-Belfast City is 100 miles. On the British mainland its probably Heathrow-Manchester.

That seems to be the right answer for a revenue earning passenger flight. Not sure if there are shorter freight flights. British Airways has occasional empty moves between Heathrow and its engineering facility at Cardiff (125 miles) and after weather-related disruption it's possible to see all sorts of short re-positioning flights but again these would normally be non-revenue flights as any passengers will normally have already been sent forward by road.

 

[Liam]

That seems to be the right answer for a revenue earning passenger flight. Not sure if there are shorter freight flights. British Airways has occasional empty moves between Heathrow and its engineering facility at Cardiff (125 miles) and after weather-related disruption it's possible to see all sorts of short re-positioning flights but again these would normally be non-revenue flights as any passengers will normally have already been sent forward by road.

I've been on an Eastern flight from Norwich which stopped at Humberside on the way back to Aberdeen. I'm pretty sure it was a scheduled stop.

 

[joncombe]

Back to the question though other than the extremely short services to Scottish Islands what is the shortest domestic flight in the UK between cities? I know there was once a Plymouth to Bristol flight back in 2006 but I can't think of any today.

There are flights between London and Cardiff and London and Exeter.

 

[joncombe]

I am trying to work out which cities have domestic more air travel between them than train travel. For example Aberdeen Airport has 42000 passengers to Norwich, 24000 to Humberside and 21000 to Durham Tees Valley which is more than the train will have likely have from the stations serving that area.

At the same time there are around 3 million flight passengers per year from London to Edinburgh which is a lot but is probably less than the amount that take the train given that there is more than 1 station in the area someone may have got the train from (i.e. someone traveling from Livingston to Watford would fly with an Edinburgh to London Heathrow ticket but would probably have a Livingston North to Watford Junction ticket rather than an Edinburgh to London Kings Cross ticket if they went on the train.)

The problem is the figures are not really available to tell you how many people are travelling by train between London and Edinburgh (for example). You can see how many people used say London Kings Cross and Edinburgh Waverley and how many trains go between them but you don't get a breakdown of the destination of the ticket. Whilst there are surely more trains than planes between London and Edinburgh my experience is that the number of people travelling the full London to Edinburgh for instance on the train is pretty small. Most are doing shorter journeys such as London to York or perhaps York to Edinburgh. Though as you also point out not everyone will be doing city-centre to city-centre journeys by train either because of the number of different stations.

I guess someone somewhere must know how many tickets were sold between London and Edinburgh and also how many seat reservations were for London to Edinburgh even if the ticket was longer (e.g. to Livingstone as you suggest). That would only leave those travelling on tickets which are not directly between Kings Cross and Waverley but do make the journey and do so without a reservation, which I imagne is a fairly small percentage of the traffic. But I don't think any such figures are made public. Whereas with flights very few make intermediate stops so you know everyone on a flight from Edinburgh to London will be going to London.

 

[thenorthern]

Looking at the flight statistics London to Inverness could be a possible candidate as the combined total passengers from London airports is around 400k. Inveness station only sees about 1.3 million passenger per year.

Flights not involving islands I think as others have pointed Glasgow to Campbeltown at 57 miles is the shortest, the shortest involving a journey which could be down by train however I think is Aberdeen to Wick at 91 miles although at only 5,000 miles per year I think more people get the train to Caithness from Aberdeen.

 

[Bald Rick]

The problem is the figures are not really available to tell you how many people are travelling by train between London and Edinburgh (for example). You can see how many people used say London Kings Cross and Edinburgh Waverley and how many trains go between them but you don't get a breakdown of the destination of the ticket. Whilst there are surely more trains than planes between London and Edinburgh my experience is that the number of people travelling the full London to Edinburgh for instance on the train is pretty small. Most are doing shorter journeys such as London to York or perhaps York to Edinburgh. Though as you also point out not everyone will be doing city-centre to city-centre journeys by train either because of the number of different stations.

I guess someone somewhere must know how many tickets were sold between London and Edinburgh and also how many seat reservations were for London to Edinburgh even if the ticket was longer (e.g. to Livingstone as you suggest). That would only leave those travelling on tickets which are not directly between Kings Cross and Waverley but do make the journey and do so without a reservation, which I imagne is a fairly small percentage of the traffic. But I don't think any such figures are made public. Whereas with flights very few make intermediate stops so you know everyone on a flight from Edinburgh to London will be going to London.

There are a lot more flights between London and Edinburgh than trains. Nearly twice as many in fact. However there are many more seats on the trains. Air has about 70% of the air/rail market on that flow.

To answer the OPs exam question, pretty much every domestic flight route that has a competing rail link will see more passengers in the air than on the rails. The most likely exceptions are:

London - Manchester
London - Leeds
London - Newcastle
London - Exeter
London - Cardiff
London - Dundee

... and the last one of those hides the likelihood that most Dundee - London travellers will go to Edinburgh airport and fly.

There's possibly a few 'cross country' routes that see more rail than air passengers, but I can't think of any.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One of the significant factors here may be that while we're talking about flights between "London" and Edinburgh, in reality Luton serves the south Midlands and the Home Counties in a way Kings Cross doesn't, and similarly Stansted East Anglia, and Gatwick Sussex etc.

Not everyone lives *in* London. If you live within half an hour of Kings Cross (or perhaps Stevenage/Peterborough) the train will probably be quicker by the time the faff associated with air travel has taken place. If you don't, as most people don't, air is going to be a lot quicker, and if going in the peak quite possibly a lot cheaper too.

 

[racklam]

British Airways has occasional empty moves between Heathrow and its engineering facility at Cardiff (125 miles)

I'm sure the BA services from Stansted are flown using planes that come from London City as well. Obviously not a revenue earning flight though.

 

[AlterEgo]

Norwich to Exeter I'm sure is a contender here. 22,359 annually, 61 people a day. (incomplete year's stats too, as it was a new route)

 

[thenorthern]

An air route that from my experience has never really worked is Anglesey to Cardiff. I assume more people in North Wales take the train to Cardiff as the flight itself is only used by 10,000 per year maximum.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don’t think there is a significant demand for North Wales to Cardiff in any form. Wales is still very much split in 3 economically. Liverpool, Manchester and Chester are of more interest to North Wales; Telford, Shrewsbury and Brum to mid Wales; and Cardiff and Bristol to the south.

The present service pattern, air service and the Gerald are there solely for political reasons. The old service pattern (North Wales to Brum via Stafford, and Chester to Shrewsbury) was a far better reflection of actual travel demand.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Norwich to Exeter I'm sure is a contender here. 22,359 annually, 61 people a day. (incomplete year's stats too, as it was a new route)

Slightly more per day, as the route is less than daily.

Exeter and Norwich are owned by the same parent company. They signed an agreement with EXT-based Flybe to provide service to Málaga and Alicante from both airports. A plane with two crews (AM and PM) fly EXT-(AGP or ALC)-NWI-EXT / crew change / EXT-NWI-(AGP or ALC)-EXT. The Norwich - Exeter route is a loss leader, but it keeps costs down by night stopping the plane at its home base every night and putting bums on seats for the otherwise empty flight between the two English cities.

 

[thenorthern]

Next year Carlisle to London Southend will finally start apparently. I can't see it taking many passengers from Virgin Trains as currently there are 2 trains per hour from Carlisle to London and it runs from the centre of Carlisle to Central London in 3h 20m where as a flight from Carlisle to London Southend may be shorter but Carlisle Airport is quite far from the centre of the city and London Southend Airport is even further away from London.

I don’t think there is a significant demand for North Wales to Cardiff in any form. Wales is still very much split in 3 economically. Liverpool, Manchester and Chester are of more interest to North Wales; Telford, Shrewsbury and Brum to mid Wales; and Cardiff and Bristol to the south.

The present service pattern, air service and the Gerald are there solely for political reasons. The old service pattern (North Wales to Brum via Stafford, and Chester to Shrewsbury) was a far better reflection of actual travel demand.

To be honest a Anglesey to London City flight would probably be more useful than Anglesey to Cardiff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Definitely agree. London is a more important destination from North Wales than Cardiff, whatever Plaid Cymru might want.

 

[dk1]

Next year Carlisle to London Southend will finally start apparently. I can't see it taking many passengers from Virgin Trains as currently there are 2 trains per hour from Carlisle to London and it runs from the centre of Carlisle to Central London in 3h 20m where as a flight from Carlisle to London Southend may be shorter but Carlisle Airport is quite far from the centre of the city and London Southend Airport is even further away from London.

I'm taking bets on how long this farce will stay airborne.

 

[mickey]

That seems to be the right answer for a revenue earning passenger flight. Not sure if there are shorter freight flights. British Airways has occasional empty moves between Heathrow and its engineering facility at Cardiff (125 miles) and after weather-related disruption it's possible to see all sorts of short re-positioning flights but again these would normally be non-revenue flights as any passengers will normally have already been sent forward by road.

Actually it is more unusual for these flights to be empty, as it's such a hassle to get passengers and bags off and onto coaches after a diversion, plus immigration formalities can be a pain (UKBF doesn't staff Brum for example with enough officers to handle more than one non-EU arrival). Usually they land, refuel and wait for the weather to clear in London before carrying on with the same passengers.

BA's shortest scheduled flight is Gatwick-Jersey, followed closely by Heathrow-Manchester and Heathrow-Bradford.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Next year Carlisle to London Southend will finally start apparently. I can't see it taking many passengers from Virgin Trains as currently there are 2 trains per hour from Carlisle to London and it runs from the centre of Carlisle to Central London in 3h 20m where as a flight from Carlisle to London Southend may be shorter but Carlisle Airport is quite far from the centre of the city and London Southend Airport is even further away from London.

I'm taking bets on how long this farce will stay airborne.

Clearly it's an attempt by Stobart, who own both airports, to boost their profile and use. I daresay the main target market will be the more affluent types in Essex wanting a fast link to the Lake District. Probably a small niche but not beyond the realms of possibility that it might work. A check of Carlisle Airport's webpage shows that car hire is available there and it's only 20 or so miles to the Lakes so a feasible option.

 

[Liam]

I have always been amazed that in the 60's there were Glasgow-Edinburgh-Aberdeen flights. Does anyone have any more information on these, when did they finish?

 

[thenorthern]

I have always been amazed that in the 60's there were Glasgow-Edinburgh-Aberdeen flights. Does anyone have any more information on these, when did they finish?

Were passengers allowed to fly just from Glasgow to Edinburgh? I know back in the 1980s some of the flights from the Netherlands to Newcastle used top stop at what was then Teesside International Airport en route but I am not sure if people were allowed to fly from Teesside to Newcastle only.

 

[route:oxford]

I have always been amazed that in the 60's there were Glasgow-Edinburgh-Aberdeen flights. Does anyone have any more information on these, when did they finish?

Why be amazed though?

Until 1990, when the Conservative Government delivered the "Open Skies" for Scotland policy (much to the fury of the SNP who claimed the policy was ''short-sighted, destructive, and anti-Scottish'' and Labour who claimed it "defies logic") all transatlantic flights from Scotland had to arrive and depart from Prestwick Airport. From 1990 onwards Scots were permitted to fly transatlantic from Glasgow, Edinburgh or Aberdeen. So passengers used internal domestic flights to get to and from the international airport.

Not forgetting that until late 80s/early 90s decent roads stopped at the Keir Roundabout. Just going to Perth meant driving through the middle of Dunblane, along the High Street of Blackford, up the side of the Cairney Braes and again through the high streets of Auchterarder and Aberuthven almost all on single carriageways. If you were going further North, it meant going into Perth as far as the railway station and turning left to Inverness or carry on through the middle of Perth to Aberdeen. On a summer peak Saturday, you were talking at least an hour to get from Perth station to across the river.

Even now, flying is often the logical choice.

On a Sunday, the first two flights to the Capital from Aberdeen will have landed at Heathrow before the first train to the Capital leaves Aberdeen for Edinburgh.

 

[route:oxford]

Are there any other routes where domestic flights will have more passengers than train travel. Of course anything involving Northern Ireland or an island location is likely to have more flight passengers than train passengers.

At a guess, Edinburgh - Southampton.

There are usually around 5 return flights a day which are generally operated by Q400s with around 78 seats. The few discounted seats go very quickly and from my own experience the flights are very well loaded. I'd guess at least 100,000 passengers each way every year.

 

[thenorthern]

From my experience as well many flights from regional airports to London Heathrow are not people wanting to go to London but more just getting a connecting flight. Whenever I have done the Manchester to London Heathrow flight its been passengers getting a connecting flight at London Heathrow mostly to the United States.