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Tyne & Wear metro potential extension to Washington study.

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jh64

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Split from this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tyne-wear-metro-fleet-replacement-awarded-to-stadler.157260/

The North East Joint Transport Committee is set to discuss development of a new Strategic Outline Business Case (SOBC) for the South of Tyne and Wearside Loop which could take the Tyne and Wear Metro to Washington in a major boost for regional connectivity.
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The South of Tyne and Wearside Loop would make use of the North end of the disused Leamside Line to bring Metro through Follingsby to Washington, over the River Wear and then link up with another disused track bed to South Hylton. Later phases of the extension would also have a direct route from Follingsby to Hebburn, using a bridge over the existing rail line in the Pelaw area, allowing South Tyneside to be joined to the new service.

Another go at bringing the Metro to Washington, would this require a few more units to be tacked onto the order?

EDIT: Added a quote from the news page.
 
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Killingworth

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Another go at bringing the Metro to Washington, would this require a few more units to be tacked onto the order?
Very interesting, but these projects would be much easier to follow with a map. In this case it shows the line skirting the eastern fringe of the built up area on one side and the Pattinson Industrial Estate on the other. The old trackbed looks clear with overbridges intact so a relatively easy construction project, subject to stations and any parking requirements. Or is High Street across the track at South Hylton?
 
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swt_passenger

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Another go at bringing the Metro to Washington, would this require a few more units to be tacked onto the order?
Definitely. The current order is micro-managed to fit the exact timetable that will exist once the South Shields doubling is finished. Unless Pelaw - Sunderland - South Hylton - Washington - Pelaw was run as a 3 tph loop. I’m sure this has been discussed before. But here they’re even adding a connection from Washington towards Hebburn; and then moving on to a completely separate idea to allow passengers from Sunderland to Leeds, Manchester, London etc to join the ECML at Tursdale. Maybe they should stick to what’s practical?

But IMHO this all deserves to be in a separate thread, unfortunately the previous expansion threads are locked.
 
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geordieblue

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But here they’re even adding a connection from Washington towards Hebburn; and then moving on to a completely separate idea to allow passengers from Sunderland to Leeds, Manchester, London etc to join the ECML at Tursdale. Maybe they should stick to what’s practical?
I think that line about a bridge at Pelaw is a misunderstanding of Nexus' expansion map, which shows the Metro Flow project as a red line along part of the South Shields branch. A Shields-Washington service would seem a very poor use of units which, as has been said upthread, will need to be reordered.

Edit - that's the official North East Transport page, so it can't be a misunderstanding. Is this a way of providing a South Shields-Sunderland service 'the long way round' instead of shoving more Metro units on the Durham Coast? Is it a sacrificial lamb which can be cut by government conditional to the rest of the funding going ahead? Or are Nexus just off their heads? Seems a very very strange proposal.
 

swt_passenger

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Very interesting, but these projects would be much easier to follow with a map. In this case it shows the line skirting the eastern fringe of the built up area on one side and the Pattinson Industrial Estate on the other. The old trackbed looks clear with overbridges intact so a relatively easy construction project, subject to stations and any parking requirements. Or is High Street across the track at South Hylton?
I’d have thought at the South Hylton end getting under the A19 would be the most significant issue, although it looks as if there’s a footpath subway. South Hylton is at roughly the same level as the local road, I think it’s Hylton Bank? Presumably a level crossing issue in the present climate, but perhaps Metro could still get away with splitting the station either side of the road as at various other locations? Does anyone know if they would be allowed to install new now?
 

GrimsbyPacer

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If it doesn't go to the centre of Washington, it won't be any better than South Hylton.
What work would be needed to allow a Metro train into street traffic?
 

swt_passenger

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If it doesn't go to the centre of Washington, it won't be any better than South Hylton.
What work would be needed to allow a Metro train into street traffic?
It sort of makes you wonder why they’re so keen on promoting it. Looking at the aerial view the route seems to do an effective tour of every industrial estate in the area, but as you say goes nowhere near the centre.

I don’t think TWM style high floor light rail vehicles can do street running, they’d need the full skirts and enclosed bogies that a normal tram has.
 

DanNCL

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For as long as the likes of Tobyn Hughes and Martin Gannon are in charge, there's no chance of any funding being secured for any potential Metro extension to Washington. The pair of them are incompetent at the best of times.

Note this press release has come out on the same day as they issued another press release threatening £11m of cuts this year. This will almost certainly just be an attempt to hide the threat of £11m cuts.


It sort of makes you wonder why they’re so keen on promoting it.
There are local elections in May and Labour aren't doing too well in the polls... As I mentioned above, it's also come out at the same time as it's been revelead that the North East is in for £11m of transport funding cuts from the local authorities, this'll be an attempt by (in particular) Martin Gannon and Labour to reduce the negative publicity.

What work would be needed to allow a Metro train into street traffic?
I don’t think TWM style high floor light rail vehicles can do street running, they’d need the full skirts and enclosed bogies that a normal tram has.
The current fleet was capable of being retrofitted with the required skirting and indicators for on street operation. Not sure if the new Stadler fleet will be.
 
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jh64

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Very interesting, but these projects would be much easier to follow with a map. In this case it shows the line skirting the eastern fringe of the built up area on one side and the Pattinson Industrial Estate on the other. The old trackbed looks clear with overbridges intact so a relatively easy construction project, subject to stations and any parking requirements. Or is High Street across the track at South Hylton?

In the absence of such a map I've attached one I quickly knocked one together with Apple Maps and Pixelmator, just following the line as described.
 

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tbtc

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Tricky one

In the short term, it's a nice issue to bring up for (potential) councillors, vying for election in a few months time - the "how come other areas are getting new trains when we don't even have a station yet" argument might do well on some doorsteps

But in the longer term, I don't now that you can serve Washington much better than these proposals, given the relatively low population density in various modern housing and the fact that these are "trains" rather than "trams" so less flexible

I know that the South Shields line is getting (re?) doubled, but what's the overall plan? Would that increase to every ten minutes with a combined ten minute service to Sunderland (every twenty minutes via Boldon, every twenty minutes via Washington)? Apologies if this is commonly known (or just pie in the sky generally, since there's no guarantee of the Washington section being built?)
 

swt_passenger

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Tricky one

In the short term, it's a nice issue to bring up for (potential) councillors, vying for election in a few months time - the "how come other areas are getting new trains when we don't even have a station yet" argument might do well on some doorsteps

But in the longer term, I don't now that you can serve Washington much better than these proposals, given the relatively low population density in various modern housing and the fact that these are "trains" rather than "trams" so less flexible

I know that the South Shields line is getting (re?) doubled, but what's the overall plan? Would that increase to every ten minutes with a combined ten minute service to Sunderland (every twenty minutes via Boldon, every twenty minutes via Washington)? Apologies if this is commonly known (or just pie in the sky generally, since there's no guarantee of the Washington section being built?)
I dont think there’s been anything published about how such a loop would be served. All we know for sure is that the “metro flow” project, (ie South Shields line doubling), increases both existing lines to 6 tph/10min headways.
 

hacman

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I’d have thought at the South Hylton end getting under the A19 would be the most significant issue, although it looks as if there’s a footpath subway. South Hylton is at roughly the same level as the local road, I think it’s Hylton Bank? Presumably a level crossing issue in the present climate, but perhaps Metro could still get away with splitting the station either side of the road as at various other locations? Does anyone know if they would be allowed to install new now?

The bridge that's still there under the A19 would only be wide enough for a single track. I'm not sure if this was incorporated into the A19 to get the road over the railway at a time after regular traffic had ceased and it had perhaps become a single track serving a freight objective of some sort, or if it was there to facilitate the bridleway/footpath that the trackbed has now become. Either way, it's also used as a road to access the farm buildings on the eastern side of the A19 - I drove through there last Saturday funny enough!

Installing a new crossing shouldn't be an issue at South Hylton; as it's next to a station most trains will be slowing down / pulling away, the construction would be reinstatement with little alternative routing as opposed to a new build, and barriers with CCTV and obstacle detection would almost certainly be a given. Despite this, splitting the station would likely still be a good option, as it ensures that the vast majority of trains will be accelerating when crossing rather than braking.

I don’t think TWM style high floor light rail vehicles can do street running, they’d need the full skirts and enclosed bogies that a normal tram has.

The current order of high floor units can't do street running, as the skirts are the issue as you mention. These can add a considerable amount of weight. Most modern trams have doors over the couplers too, as this is a potential source of injury/damage in the event of a collision. Since the couplers on the Stadler units will only ever be used for ECS movements or dragging units about in the depot, I'm quite surprised that the design leaves the couplers exposed to be honest, as a big gaping hole at the front of the unit will add a decent amount of aerodynamic drag and it's a somewhat missed opportunity to improve safety at the various open level crossings on the network.

High floor street running also requires a lot of space on streets too, as you have to adhere to minimum platform widths and such, providing access such as stairs or a ramp too. It's for this reason that the vast majority of systems, even overseas, are low floor as the station environment is much easier to integrate into existing street layouts. On the other hand with low floor trams, you can get away with just having a slightly raised kerb on a normal pavement if space is tight - kind of how we do for bus stops on some of the busier routes.

If we ever see trams in Tyne and Wear I'd expect them to be a low floor segregated network, but perhaps with common branding and ticketing shared with Metro. It's possible we could also see some sections of track shared too without stopping, or with some stations rebuilt to have both high and low sections of platform, but there wouldn't be too many cases where this sort of arrangement could offer enough benefit to justify the hassle.
 

MetroCar4058

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There are local elections in May and Labour aren't doing too well in the polls... As I mentioned above, it's also come out at the same time as it's been revelead that the North East is in for £11m of transport funding cuts from the local authorities, this'll be an attempt by (in particular) Martin Gannon and Labour to reduce the negative publicity.
I think this is a tad unfair, but of course this announcement is politically advantageous. The £11m 'cuts' are a result of operational finance issues, basically a result of not enough people using the services but we have the same number of staff to pay and infrastructure to maintain. This issue has mostly come from the fact patronage hasn't recovered. I believe this recently stood at 83% for Metro which is in fact the best stat seen for light rail, although not wholly unexpected due to the local demographics.

The lack of continuity funding as a result of the ending of the Light Rail Recovery Grants and the Bus Service Support/Recovery Grants in April, alongside changes to the reimbursement profiles used for concessionary travel means that operational finance is a total mess. The government tends not to like getting involved in covering operational expenditure, but they do love getting involved in capital schemes, so really these two things are totally unrelated.

If we wanted to get a bit more into this, we could argue this is TNEs way to foster patronage growth and financial stability over the longer term by opening up lots of new travel opportunities, instead of cutting everything back to the bone to pursue 'managed decline' to balance the books.

If I'm honest, I'd be surprised if we don't get a bus service support/recovery grant and LRG extension in the coming weeks.
The current fleet was capable of being retrofitted with the required skirting and indicators for on street operation. Not sure if the new Stadler fleet will be.
I hear this thrown around a lot but if I'm honest I don't believe it i true - I think this is derived from the 'it's based on a German tram' history of the MetroCar. Regardless, 1500V DC is not permitted on streets so it wouldn't be possible.

I dont think there’s been anything published about how such a loop would be served.
This will be considered as part of the strategic case and would be jumping the gun massively without any evidence.
 

DanNCL

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I think this is a tad unfair, but of course this announcement is politically advantageous. The £11m 'cuts' are a result of operational finance issues, basically a result of not enough people using the services but we have the same number of staff to pay and infrastructure to maintain. This issue has mostly come from the fact patronage hasn't recovered. I believe this recently stood at 83% for Metro which is in fact the best stat seen for light rail, although not wholly unexpected due to the local demographics.

The lack of continuity funding as a result of the ending of the Light Rail Recovery Grants and the Bus Service Support/Recovery Grants in April, alongside changes to the reimbursement profiles used for concessionary travel means that operational finance is a total mess. The government tends not to like getting involved in covering operational expenditure, but they do love getting involved in capital schemes, so really these two things are totally unrelated.

If we wanted to get a bit more into this, we could argue this is TNEs way to foster patronage growth and financial stability over the longer term by opening up lots of new travel opportunities, instead of cutting everything back to the bone to pursue 'managed decline' to balance the books.

If I'm honest, I'd be surprised if we don't get a bus service support/recovery grant and LRG extension in the coming weeks.
Not enough people using the services seriously? I use both buses and Metro on a near daily basis and all of the journeys I make are basically back to pre-pandemic levels - if anything I'd go as far as saying that some of the bus routes (although I know these'll be commercial routes rather than ones funded by Nexus) are likely carrying more people now than they ever did pre-covid. Ticket sales may only be 83% of what they were pre-March 2020, but that's an issue to be addressed through revenue protection. I can count on one hand the number of times I've had my ticket checked anywhere other than at a ticket gate on Metro in the last two years, the regulars all know there's virtually no chance of being caught if they aren't using a barriered station, and a lot therefore don't pay. If there were more roaming revenue blocks, or a higher penalty fare than £20 (or dare I say both), ticket sales would quickly skyrocket as passengers who were previously not paying start buying tickets like everyone else.

As for trying to "foster patronage growth", hiking the fares and ****ing off the unions (the £11m cuts are reported to include a pay freeze and conditions changes) certainly isn't the way to do it.

I hear this thrown around a lot but if I'm honest I don't believe it i true - I think this is derived from the 'it's based on a German tram' history of the MetroCar. Regardless, 1500V DC is not permitted on streets so it wouldn't be possible.
They were certainly built to be capable of it, although I wouldn't be surprised if subsequent modifications to the fleet (such as the completely new cabs fitted ahead of the Sunderland extension opening) may have made it impossible now. Although there aren't any examples of such usage 1500v DC is actually permitted for on street running in the UK, as Nexus have said themselves in a previous consultation document.
 

MetroCar4058

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Not enough people using the services seriously? I use both buses and Metro on a near daily basis and all of the journeys I make are basically back to pre-pandemic levels - if anything I'd go as far as saying that some of the bus routes (although I know these'll be commercial routes rather than ones funded by Nexus) are likely carrying more people now than they ever did pre-covid. Ticket sales may only be 83% of what they were pre-March 2020, but that's an issue to be addressed through revenue protection. I can count on one hand the number of times I've had my ticket checked anywhere other than at a ticket gate on Metro in the last two years, the regulars all know there's virtually no chance of being caught if they aren't using a barriered station, and a lot therefore don't pay. If there were more roaming revenue blocks, or a higher penalty fare than £20 (or dare I say both), ticket sales would quickly skyrocket as passengers who were previously not paying start buying tickets like everyone else.
Unfortunately it isn't as simple nor localised as this - the patronage issues are a national trend as a result of changing working habits and restrictions which is unlikely to be the fault of revenue protection on the Metro. I totally agree that revenue protection is an issue on the Metro (as it is on all of the light rail systems) however the pandemic has not turned any significant number of fare paying passengers into fare evaders. The bus data is similar and the information collected by the operators on their ticket machines is arguably more reliable.

The fact is patronage is down significantly and operational expenditure is the same if not more. The majority of those people who paid before the pandemic still do pay, but they are also unfortunately those who don't travel anymore or as much.

As for trying to "foster patronage growth", hiking the fares and ****ing off the unions (the £11m cuts are reported to include a pay freeze and conditions changes) certainly isn't the way to do it.
Not really sure what you expect them to do apart from ask councils to pay more via the precept (which they are doing) or cut the service further? Public transport is on a cliff edge across the country and we're looking at some drastic cuts in all bus services emerging in theh coming weeks without further funding.

They were certainly built to be capable of it, although I wouldn't be surprised if subsequent modifications to the fleet (such as the completely new cabs fitted ahead of the Sunderland extension opening) may have made it impossible now. Although there aren't any examples of such usage 1500v DC is actually permitted for on street running in the UK, as Nexus have said themselves in a previous consultation document.

I don't really believe there was every any serious thought on that - yes technically it would probably have been possible if the PTE wanted to do it but lets put this into context. The Tyne & Wear Metro was a 'to cost' conversion of clapped out BR lines into a 'SuperTram'. When Metro was being drawn up in the late 60s (the act for the system was passed in 1973) on street trams etc were majorly out of fashion and there was no money to start getting the crayons out.

You are correct - a voltage higher than 750V is technically allowed if agreed to by the ORR, but the ORR explicitly states that 750V is what should be used as the standard/max. Even if there was approval from the ORR, I don't think it would be economical to pursue both the regulatory permissions nor the engineering required for things such as clearance from 1500V networks.

Bringing this back to the Washington SOBC, it's a relatively small amount of money (mostly not from the local transport authority) which could result in a significant capital investment in areas with poor connectivity who've been after this for a long time.
 

KeithMcC

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The bridge that's still there under the A19 would only be wide enough for a single track. I'm not sure if this was incorporated into the A19 to get the road over the railway at a time after regular traffic had ceased and it had perhaps become a single track serving a freight objective of some sort, or if it was there to facilitate the bridleway/footpath that the trackbed has now become. Either way, it's also used as a road to access the farm buildings on the eastern side of the A19 - I drove through there last Saturday funny enough!
I remember the A19 being built. The railway had already closed with the end of the Lambton Staithes NCB traffic and the A19 subway joined up a number of diverted footpaths and bridleways. Why it was built on the course of the railway? Maybe when it was designed the line was still open or BR wanted to retain the option of a single line in case it was needed.
South Hylton station always had a level crossing and the line was truncated before it to still serve the paper mill and quarry.
The subway never looked wide enough for double track but has plenty of height.
 

swt_passenger

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I remember the A19 being built. The railway had already closed with the end of the Lambton Staithes NCB traffic and the A19 subway joined up a number of diverted footpaths and bridleways. Why it was built on the course of the railway? Maybe when it was designed the line was still open or BR wanted to retain the option of a single line in case it was needed.
South Hylton station always had a level crossing and the line was truncated before it to still serve the paper mill and quarry.
The subway never looked wide enough for double track but has plenty of height.
I found there’s a couple of photos of the subway on the Geograph website, if anyone‘s interested in the detail:
 

HSTEd

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You are correct - a voltage higher than 750V is technically allowed if agreed to by the ORR, but the ORR explicitly states that 750V is what should be used as the standard/max. Even if there was approval from the ORR, I don't think it would be economical to pursue both the regulatory permissions nor the engineering required for things such as clearance from 1500V networks
IIRC HMRI was of the opinion 1500V clearences were only to be marginally larger than 750V ones. They are primarily mechanical with only a minor electrical component.

But that may have changed since, that was years ago
 

LondonExile

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I've not read the proposal in full detail, but it seems to me they're assuming that the Leamside line is re-opened and under Network Rail/GBR ownership and control? I'm presuming they're after a similar arrangement to the Pelaw-Sunderland section where they operate over Network Rail infrastructure?

I'd expect that this loop may be very costly in terms of maintenance if Nexus had to bear the full costs of keeping the Victoria viaduct in full working order!
 

railfan249

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I've not read the proposal in full detail, but it seems to me they're assuming that the Leamside line is re-opened and under Network Rail/GBR ownership and control? I'm presuming they're after a similar arrangement to the Pelaw-Sunderland section where they operate over Network Rail infrastructure?

I'd expect that this loop may be very costly in terms of maintenance if Nexus had to bear the full costs of keeping the Victoria viaduct in full working order!
I wonder if the leamside section would come under control from Nexus and Metro rather than NwR as far as South Hylton. The difference is that between Pelaw and Sunderland it’s shared, however if this leamside loop was to open surely that wouldn’t be shared? So what would be the purpose/need for it to fall under NwR ownership and control?
 

swt_passenger

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I wonder if the leamside section would come under control from Nexus and Metro rather than NwR as far as South Hylton. The difference is that between Pelaw and Sunderland it’s shared, however if this leamside loop was to open surely that wouldn’t be shared? So what would be the purpose/need for it to fall under NwR ownership and control?
They also keep going on about the Leamside reopening for mainline trains, that’s why they include the possibility of through running Sunderland to Tursdale Junction as an add on here. That would therefore be a NR line. But they also want Tursdale to Pelaw Jn as an ECML and Durham bypass anyway, although nobody can say exactly what would use it…
 

railfan249

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They also keep going on about the Leamside reopening for mainline trains, that’s why they include the possibility of through running Sunderland to Tursdale Junction as an add on here. That would therefore be a NR line. But they also want Tursdale to Pelaw Jn as an ECML and Durham bypass anyway, although nobody can say exactly what would use it…
Would mainline providers actually want to use that though except for an occasional diversionary route? I often think with all these extensions and reopening whether passenger numbers are generally considered or whether they just hope for the best, the Northumberland Line being a prime example of this.
 

swt_passenger

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Would mainline providers actually want to use that though except for an occasional diversionary route? I often think with all these extensions and reopening whether passenger numbers are generally considered or whether they just hope for the best, the Northumberland Line being a prime example of this.
I don’t know. There have been numerous discussions about reopening Leamside in the main part of the forum, but no one ever explains exactly why it’s needed. I believe NR just don’t see it as having the benefits local politicians think it has.
 

LondonExile

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I wonder if the leamside section would come under control from Nexus and Metro rather than NwR as far as South Hylton. The difference is that between Pelaw and Sunderland it’s shared, however if this leamside loop was to open surely that wouldn’t be shared? So what would be the purpose/need for it to fall under NwR ownership and control?

It's this Grade II* listed beauty that I'd expect Nexus to not want to be financially liable for! - https://www.flickr.com/photos/david_allan/21944499844

My question is really that given re-opening the Leamside Line is also in that report - is the Washington loop dependent financially on Leamside coming back as a NR operation?
 

corsaVXR

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In the absence of such a map I've attached one I quickly knocked one together with Apple Maps and Pixelmator, just following the line as described.
what's the point of this route? Keeps the metro away from anywhere in Washington worth going, stays away from the biggest employer in the area, and the IAMP and skirts the outside away from where most people live.
 

swt_passenger

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It's this Grade II* listed beauty that I'd expect Nexus to not want to be financially liable for! - https://www.flickr.com/photos/david_allan/21944499844

My question is really that given re-opening the Leamside Line is also in that report - is the Washington loop dependent financially on Leamside coming back as a NR operation?
I expect this is a side issue you’ve come up with. Presumably Metro have been satisfactorily looking after the grade 2 listed Willington Dene viaduct since the original transfer from BR?
 

DanNCL

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I expect this is a side issue you’ve come up with. Presumably Metro have been satisfactorily looking after the grade 2 listed Willington Dene viaduct since the original transfer from BR?
The Willington Dene viaduct has been neglected by Nexus, to the point where it’s had a temporary speed restriction over it for several years now because of the extent Nexus have allowed it to deteriorate.

The Victoria Viaduct should not be handed to Nexus, unless anyone wants to see it fall in to an even worse state of repair than it’s in now.
 

bluenoxid

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Does the section from South Hylton to Washington add that much to the case for this line.

It would be interesting to see the case for Washington to Newcastle Central using heavy rail stock
 

Meerkat

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Does the section from South Hylton to Washington add that much to the case for this line.

It would be interesting to see the case for Washington to Newcastle Central using heavy rail stock
A heavy rail loop round Washington then back up the Team Valley would make better use of the route (but then I would want to keep it heavy rail as my crayons want it for a Leamside freight route to Toyota and Tyne Dock....)
I assume the South Hylton connection is partly because they have to make sure Sunderland doesn't feel left out??
 
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