Upgrading from Standard to First

[Jan Mayen]

I was wondering what the rules are regarding wanting to upgrade, either to First Class or Standard Premium or whatever.
I had assumed (possibly incorrectly) that on an ex InterCity service, you could take a seat and pay when the guard came round (noting that if you have a ticket that can't be upgraded (are there any?), you'd buy a new ticket.

On other services, presumably you could upgrade if you speak to the guard BEFORE taking your seat.

But on DOO services, such as Thameslink, you MUST have a First Class ticket before boarding. And, yes, Thameslink is a bad example as you'd just sit in the declassified bit at the back.

I sometimes want to upgrade, just wondered if this is the right approach.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

The general rule is that, except on a weekend, where Weekend First upgrades are offered (providing you have an eligible ticket type) - you must always purchase your upgrade before travelling in first class accommodation, regardless of operator - so long as the facilities exist to do so where you start your journey. This is the case unless a sign or marketing material explicitly says you can do something else.

The difference is what happens when you are "caught". Some will simply charge you the excess, others a Penalty Fare and others will report for prosecution. Often, it will depend on who stops you.

Some InterCity services, e.g. EMR and GWR are also Penalty Fare trains.

Other than on a weekend, you would be best to proactively seek out the Train Manager / Conductor before occupying first class on most services.

 

[yorkie]

I was wondering what the rules are regarding wanting to upgrade, either to First Class or Standard Premium or whatever...

Which operator are you travelling with, what journey is it, and what day of the week is it?

I had assumed (possibly incorrectly) that on an ex InterCity service, you could take a seat and pay when the guard came round (noting that if you have a ticket that can't be upgraded (are there any?), you'd buy a new ticket.

That's not true of all services that currently exist that used to be operated by BR InterCity (notwithstanding the difficulty of establishing which services are direct descendants)

On other services, presumably you could upgrade if you speak to the guard BEFORE taking your seat.

But on DOO services, such as Thameslink, you MUST have a First Class ticket before boarding. And, yes, Thameslink is a bad example as you'd just sit in the declassified bit at the back.

I sometimes want to upgrade, just wondered if this is the right approach.

It's nothing to do with the operation of the train; some trains are DOO but have staff whose responsibilities include checking tickets (e.g. on Southeastern High Speed, Lumo, Scotrail and others, with a range of job titles), but these services generally do not convey First Class accommodation.

Similarly, there are trains which have Guards, but the Guards are non-commercial in nature (e.g. SWR), but again these generally do not convey First Class accommodation (but are there any SWR services with non-commercial Guards which do convey First Class, does anyone know?)

Even if a commercial Guard is present, this doesn't necessarily mean that an authorised collector cannot issue a Penalty Fare.

At weekends, the rules may be further relaxed, as Weekend First upgrades may be available; this may depend on operator / route.

It may also depend on what type of ticket is held, for example on weekdays when Weekend First isn't available, a passenger holding a single or return ticket can still upgrade to the lowest possible fare on LNER, but - last time I read the rules (this may have changed) - a season ticket holder could be penalised to the extent of being charged the full fare, as if no ticket was held.

I don't know if you would classify trains operated by GTR under the "Gatwick Express" brand as "former InterCity" services (they were IC under BR, but did not extend to Brighton), but these trains used to offer the full range of fares on board, but are now Penalty Fare trains. They do not have Guards, but do have an OBS, but I'm not sure if the OBS would charge a Penalty Fare, or if a Penalty Fare would only apply if a revenue protection officer/inspector joined the train (I'm sure someone familiar with the route would know the answer to this).

 

[Jan Mayen]

I didn't have a particular route in mind. Although Gatwick Express is a penalty fare train, I have upgraded when it's been busy.

I think I'll just ask first in future!

 

[Haywain]

are there any SWR services with non-commercial Guards which do convey First Class, does anyone know?

I think there are cases of non-commercial guards working services which convey first class accommodation when working as cover guards or rest day working.

 

[sheff1]

On the few Transport for Wales services which have First Class it is perfectly acceptable to upgrade on board. TfW advise you to ask the conductor whether there are places available but in my experience just speaking to the First Class host when you get on is fine.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

As far as Standard Premium on Avanti is concerned you can just take a seat and pay the Train Manager when they (if they) check tickets.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

That's not true of all services that currently exist that used to be operated by BR InterCity (notwithstanding the difficulty of establishing which services are direct descendants)

It's nothing to do with the operation of the train; some trains are DOO but have staff whose responsibilities include checking tickets (e.g. on Southeastern High Speed, Lumo, Scotrail and others, with a range of job titles), but these services generally do not convey First Class accommodation.

What about Open Access Operators? Travelling on an Advance First with Hull Trains, the unreserved seats seemed taken by people to whom the host sold tickets or upgrades.

 

[kkong]

The general rule is that, except on a weekend, where Weekend First upgrades are offered (providing you have an eligible ticket type) - you must always purchase your upgrade before travelling in first class accommodation, regardless of operator - so long as the facilities exist to do so where you start your journey. This is the case unless a sign or marketing material explicitly says you can do something else.

Other than on a weekend, you would be best to proactively seek out the Train Manager / Conductor before occupying first class on most services.

It's worth noting that ScotRail permit on-board upgrades to first class on weekdays:

If there are still seats available in First Class you can upgrade on board by speaking to the conductor. It costs £5 to upgrade one way on eXpress services, and £15 one way on intercity services.

There is no practical way to upgrade before the conductor comes to inspect your ticket; in my experience, anyone seeking out the conductor before departure will be instructed to take a seat in first class (if available) and that payment will be taken later.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

What about Open Access Operators? Travelling on an Advance First with Hull Trains, the unreserved seats seemed taken by people to whom the host sold tickets or upgrades.

Hull Trains technically requires you to make enquires with the on-board staff regarding availability first. They offer midweek upgrades, but only if the seating isn't required by existing first class ticket/pass holders and they have sufficient stock/supplies.

Ask onboard for availability on the day

First Class Train Tickets | Hull Trains

Enjoy Hull Trains First Class travel for less than you think and make the most of your business trip or weekend away.

www.hulltrains.co.uk

It's worth noting that ScotRail permit on-board upgrades to first class on weekdays:



There is no practical way to upgrade before the conductor comes to inspect your ticket; in my experience, anyone seeking out the conductor before departure will be instructed to take a seat in first class (if available) and that payment will be taken later.

But it gives them wiggle room, should they want to take action against a rogue passenger, although it's harder in Scotland.

They clearly advertise it as being a conditional upgrade potentially available on making enquiries with the conductor. If on finding them, they tell you to take a seat in first and they'll find you later, that's perfectly acceptable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah OK. I was going by the forum’s ticketing guide, but what you’re suggesting, I think is that XC have brought in their own policy to supersede standard practice, although I haven’t been able to find any evidence of that through Google searches. Seems madness that you can’t excess onboard if you’re really suffering.

No, standard policy is that you can't; some TOCs have specific policies that you can. XC has such a policy on weekends if you hold a walk up ticket but not otherwise.

You can of course on any TOC with guards approach them and ask to excess BEFORE entering first class.

Can you quote and link to the bit of the Forum saying otherwise?

 

[tomoufc]

No, standard policy is that you can't; some TOCs have specific policies that you can. XC has such a policy on weekends if you hold a walk up ticket but not otherwise.

You can of course on any TOC with guards approach them and ask to excess BEFORE entering first class.

Can you quote and link to the bit of the Forum saying otherwise?

The forum guide doesn’t mention needing to seek the guard before taking a seat. In any case, in the context I was discussing this, the guard will either already be in the carriage or wouldn’t be able to reach the passenger.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The forum guide doesn’t mention needing to seek the guard before taking a seat. In any case, in the context I was discussing this, the guard will either already be in the carriage or wouldn’t be able to reach the passenger.

Can you please quote and link to the passage you are referring to?

 

[tomoufc]

Can you please quote and link to the passage you are referring to?

I can’t quote something that isn’t there, no.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can’t quote something that isn’t there, no.

I'd suggest re-reading it, because it does differentiate between before boarding (excess) and on board (new ticket or worse).

RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 4 - Excesses, Upgrades & Supplements

Section 4 - Excesses, Upgrades & Supplements Contents 4.1 Introduction to excesses & upgrades 4.2 Excesses 4.2.1 Excess: change of route 4.2.2 Excess: upgrade to 1st 4.2.3 Excess: overdistance 4.2.4 Excess: change of ticket type 4.2.5 Excess: Advance tickets 4.2.6 Excess: Single to Return...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[tomoufc]

I'd suggest re-reading it, because it does differentiate between before boarding (excess) and on board (new ticket or worse).

RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 4 - Excesses, Upgrades & Supplements

Section 4 - Excesses, Upgrades & Supplements Contents 4.1 Introduction to excesses & upgrades 4.2 Excesses 4.2.1 Excess: change of route 4.2.2 Excess: upgrade to 1st 4.2.3 Excess: overdistance 4.2.4 Excess: change of ticket type 4.2.5 Excess: Advance tickets 4.2.6 Excess: Single to Return...

www.railforums.co.uk

In penalty fare areas yes, but that’s not what I had in mind. Cheers

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

I think there are cases of non-commercial guards working services which convey first class accommodation when working as cover guards or rest day working.

We have our fair share of rostered turns working trains which convey first class accommodation too.

 

[MCR247]

Just because it hasn’t been mentioned yet, if you want to upgrade in the week then it’s probably worth checking seat frog.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In penalty fare areas yes, but that’s not what I had in mind. Cheers

Hmm, I can now see where your reading comes from. Perhaps it needs to be updated. The NRCoT can be a bit vague on such things but it is seriously ill advised to board a train without a fully valid ticket now if there was the means to regularise the situation before boarding, even if it's an "entitled" excess like a route excess, or unless the TOC has specifically invited you to do so by way of something like Weekend First. And if you do want to upgrade on board it is definitely best to ask before taking a seat in first class.

It might be you'd be able to defend a Court case based on the NRCoT, but most people would rather not have the faff.

 

[MCR247]

If you aren’t able to find/talk to the guard, personally I’d look for a spare seat (unreserved for as long as you’ll need it) and if present, mention to one of the First Class hosts that you want to upgrade.