Use of discounts/frauds 2 (discount codes)

[Bletchleyite]

Had a bit of a thought the other day.

The Trainline Railcard discount codes that get you a Railcard for £21 (at present) are passed around all over the place, including on several websites.

Is using one of these codes when you've not had it sent to you or obtaining it genuinely (e.g. by it being popped up on the Trainline site for you) potentially fraud? Would Trainline or a TOC seek to prosecute that if so?

If it would be, how are these sites sharing discount codes legal, as wouldn't their operators and people who post be an accomplice to an offence?

 

[methecooldude]

I've had a quick look, they look to be generic discount codes, not a code allocated per customer. Therefore, I would suggest that this is okay, and is in fact in TTLs interest to get it as far and wide as possible.

This is different to the thread that spawned this one, where LNER Perks gives a discount code allocated to the customer only for their use

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've had a quick look, they look to be generic discount codes, not a code allocated per customer. Therefore, I would suggest that this is okay, and is in fact in TTLs interest to get it as far and wide as possible.

This is different to the thread that spawned this one, where LNER Perks gives a discount code allocated to the customer only for their use

It did occur to me that if they wanted to offer discounts to specific people it isn't exactly hard to do that. Other companies do discount codes that only work for a specific individual or set of individuals.

And as you say LNER have a specific use-case for their £5 discount - it's an incentive to sign up.

 

[methecooldude]

It did occur to me that if they wanted to offer discounts to specific people it isn't exactly hard to do that. Other companies do discount codes that only work for a specific individual or set of individuals.

Oh for sure, yes, in the case that a discount code was generated for the existing TTL customer, then you would be right, if its shared (although should become invalid once used) then it would open up fraud cases all over the place

 

[skyhigh]

Is using one of these codes when you've not had it sent to you or obtaining it genuinely (e.g. by it being popped up on the Trainline site for you) potentially fraud?

Not in the slightest. The whole point of Trainline offering the discount is so that the Railcard is displayed in their app and hopefully incentivises people to use their app to purchase tickets. The more people who use it the better for them.

If that was Fraud then so would the use of the likes of the PayPal browser addon that will automatically try discount codes for you on sites.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I don't see how a TOC could complain about it. If Trainline wanted to give railcards away I don't see a TOC could stop them. Equally, if Trainline wanted to discount train tickets, it's taking th financial hit, so I can't see the TOCs have cause to complain.

 

[Titfield]

I don't see how a TOC could complain about it. If Trainline wanted to give railcards away I don't see a TOC could stop them. Equally, if Trainline wanted to discount train tickets, it's taking th financial hit, so I can't see the TOCs have cause to complain.

It may be contrary to the agency agreement between RDG (I think) and Trainline which appoints Trainline as an agent of the TOCS (collectively).

 

[skyhigh]

It may be contrary to the agency agreement between RDG (I think) and Trainline which appoints Trainline as an agent of the TOCS (collectively).

That wouldn't be of any concern to a passenger though?

 

[AdamWW]

It did occur to me that if they wanted to offer discounts to specific people it isn't exactly hard to do that. Other companies do discount codes that only work for a specific individual or set of individuals.

And as you say LNER have a specific use-case for their £5 discount - it's an incentive to sign up.

I thought the idea was that companies generally wanted people to share generic discount codes as it's getting free exposure.

As already said, it's not hard to link a discount code to an account or to make it only usable once.

 

[alistairlees]

It may be contrary to the agency agreement between RDG (I think) and Trainline which appoints Trainline as an agent of the TOCS (collectively).

It isn't.

 

[ianBR]

I’m surprised the industry doesn’t just give out railcards for free given the amount of money it then makes by fining people who inadvertently forget to renew them.

And thanks to the Trainline not notifying people their digital cards need renewing the fine income must now be exponentially larger!

 

[MrJeeves]

Is using one of these codes when you've not had it sent to you or obtaining it genuinely (e.g. by it being popped up on the Trainline site for you) potentially fraud? Would Trainline or a TOC seek to prosecute that if so?

If it would be, how are these sites sharing discount codes legal, as wouldn't their operators and people who post be an accomplice to an offence?

It'd presumably only be a matter between you and TTL, and if TTL want it to be for eligible customers only, they should restrict the use of the code themselves.

You're just throwing TTL's money down the drain based on the Railcard commission if they're only charging £21!

I thought the idea was that companies generally wanted people to share generic discount codes as it's getting free exposure.

Indeed, and human psychology plays a part too — if someone thinks they're getting a "secret" discount, they may be more likely to buy while they can, similar to how companies sometimes release promos themselves on HotUKDeals and other similar sites.

 

[talldave]

Whilst I've always been sceptical of Apps that simply allow you to do what you could do on a web browser, they come into their own for their ability to offer codeless discounts targeted directly at the user.

 

[cactustwirly]

Had a bit of a thought the other day.

The Trainline Railcard discount codes that get you a Railcard for £21 (at present) are passed around all over the place, including on several websites.

Is using one of these codes when you've not had it sent to you or obtaining it genuinely (e.g. by it being popped up on the Trainline site for you) potentially fraud? Would Trainline or a TOC seek to prosecute that if so?

If it would be, how are these sites sharing discount codes legal, as wouldn't their operators and people who post be an accomplice to an offence?

Why would it be fraud?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Why would it be fraud?

Assuming for the moment that the codes are only intended for the use of the person they are issued to, using it while not being the person it was issued to would be fraud because the user would be pretending to be someone else - which to my mind meets the dictionary definition of fraud, even if it doesn't match what it says in the Fraud Act.

But the consensus appears to be that the codes aren't intended only for one person to use: they're available for the public and so can be passed on with no problems.

 

[cactustwirly]

Assuming for the moment that the codes are only intended for the use of the person they are issued to, using it while not being the person it was issued to would be fraud because the user would be pretending to be someone else - which to my mind meets the dictionary definition of fraud, even if it doesn't match what it says in the Fraud Act.

But the consensus appears to be that the codes aren't intended only for one person to use: they're available for the public and so can be passed on with no problems.

How would they be pretending to be someone else if they put their own details down during the checkout process?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

How would they be pretending to be someone else if they put their own details down during the checkout process?

By pretending to be the person the code was issued to.

But since it turns out that these are not recipient - only codes, the point is moot.

 

[skyhigh]

By pretending to be the person the code was issued to.

I can follow the argument here if person A gets an email saying "we have a special offer just for you, use this exclusive discount code to get £9 off a Railcard on our website" but person B uses that code while pretending to be person A.

But if person B was to use the code while filling in the form with their own details and email address, I don't see how anyone can reasonably suggest that they have made a fraudulent representation of their position or has pretended to be someone else.

 

[Stephen42]

I can follow the argument here if person A gets an email saying "we have a special offer just for you, use this exclusive discount code to get £9 off a Railcard on our website" but person B uses that code while pretending to be person A.

But if person B was to use the code while filling in the form with their own details and email address, I don't see how anyone can reasonably suggest that they have made a fraudulent representation of their position or has pretended to be someone else.

It depends on the specifics, for fraud by false representation the representation can be express or implied. If the person knows specific requirements for a discount code, trying to use it will often be an implication they are eligible for it. If the code was NhsStaffDiscount entering it might be sufficient to be a false representation through implication alone.

However, in nearly all cases entering the code can't be taken to imply anything, even if the email is clear about the code not being transferrable if person A didn't tell person B about that them entering the code isn't implying they are person A. Any company trying to restrict to specific customers should give one time codes or tie to specific accounts because of the sharing sites. As it's such standard practice a reasonable person might think if the code is accepted that means it wasn't intended to be for a particular customer.

 

[cactustwirly]

It depends on the specifics, for fraud by false representation the representation can be express or implied. If the person knows specific requirements for a discount code, trying to use it will often be an implication they are eligible for it. If the code was NhsStaffDiscount entering it might be sufficient to be a false representation through implication alone.

However, in nearly all cases entering the code can't be taken to imply anything, even if the email is clear about the code not being transferrable if person A didn't tell person B about that them entering the code isn't implying they are person A. Any company trying to restrict to specific customers should give one time codes or tie to specific accounts because of the sharing sites. As it's such standard practice a reasonable person might think if the code is accepted that means it wasn't intended to be for a particular customer.

There is obviously an intent side to it, so someone using a codes extension like Honey and it auto fills NhsStaffDiscount without them realising wouldn't necessarily be committing fraud