Validity of off peak day return

[FinsburyPark]

Good day,

I was on a train on Thurday, travelling on an off peak day return.

Its mostly common knowledge that the 09.30 time threshold is applicable for the morning departure.

I took a service home that was in the 17.30 to 18.00 timeframe. As i reguarly look at the disputes and prosecutions side of the forum, i was wondering, am i going to be the next one on there?

I looked on multiple TOC websites including my own local TOCs site on the train home and it all gets a bit confusing.

Most of the TOC websites publically mention the 09.30 rule or other regional variations (with some exceptions for Avanti and Cross Country (the intercity style TOCs)).

There is an obvious trend. But its no so clear cut for the return leg.

On the weekends it simply doesnt matter but on weekdays, it all gets a bit complex?

Luckily I didnt come across any revenue protection and my ticket even worked in the gateline, so no need to post an experience in the disputes and prosecutions.

But its safe to say the rules are often a bit of a miss match, largely dependent on the route taken.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@FinsburyPark. Welcome to the forum. For your own particular Off Peak Day Return ticket, what are the origin + destination stations? Restrictions can vary somewhat!

 

[FinsburyPark]

@FinsburyPark. Welcome to the forum. For your particular Off Peak Day Return ticket, what are your origin and destination stations?

@FinsburyPark. Welcome to the forum. For your own particular Off Peak Day Return ticket, what are the origin + destination stations? Restrictions can vary somewhat!

Origin Lancing (LAC) Destination Brighton (BTN)

 

[Joe Paxton]

Origin Lancing (LAC) Destination Brighton (BTN)

As per BR Fares, the Off-peak Day Return carries the restriction code B3 - which is:

Restricted Days:
Monday to Friday

Outward Travel & Return Travel
Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:00.

 

[Watershed]

Welcome to the forum!

Off-Peak time restrictions vary significantly and there are no real blanket rules you can rely on.

Different journeys from the same station often have different restrictions. Even for a given journey, sometimes there are differences in restrictions depending on the exact type of Off-Peak ticket you buy (Super Off-Peak vs Off-Peak, or Day Return vs "open" return vs Travelcard).

Restrictions are also often different between different fare routes for a given journey (e.g. "Any Permitted" vs "not via London" or "Southern only"), or when making the same journey in different directions.

Suffice it to say, you have to check to be sure. The definitive method is to either look at the two letter code associated with the fare (in the format nre.co.uk/XX - this is printed on the ticket nowadays) or to see what a journey planner will offer you (it will only offer valid Off-Peak fares that are valid for the selected journey).

For Lancing to Brighton, it is relatively simple as there is only one type of Off-Peak ticket, which has restriction code B3. This means it's valid from 9am onwards, with no evening restrictions.

 

[FinsburyPark]

On another note, one of the TOC websites mentions to speak to the conductor before boarding the train to see of they are accepting off peaks on that service.

The whole arrangement is a disaster waiting to happen.

I think National Rail in conjunction with the TOCs needs to put an off peak validity checker tool on thier website.

Something like.

To: (destination) From (origin)

Time of outbound train

Your ticket(s) are valid

Time of return train

Your tickets are not valid, please travel on a train timed to depart after 18.45

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@FinsburyPark. So, if travelling Mon-Fri, the first train from Lancing (direct to Brighton) is effectively the 0916. You could also travel on the 0907 heading for London Victoria, but only as far as Hove (change needed there).

 

[30907]

On another note, one of the TOC websites mentions to speak to the conductor before boarding the train to see of they are accepting off peaks on that service.

Which one?

Something like.

To: (destination) From (origin)

Time of outbound train

Your ticket(s) are valid

Time of return train

Your tickets are not valid, please travel on a train timed to depart after 18.45

If you do that for the outbound train, it will offer you a choice of fares with more-or-less that info.

The 0930 "rule" is an approximate guide, particularly for the London area - and it has never (OK 45 years to my knowledge) been a blanket rule.

 

[FinsburyPark]

The reason i mention this is much like most of the people here, I am a rail enthusiast to some extent.

While i don't pretend to know it all, i have a generalised idea of the ticketing system. Well, at least somewhat.

While fare evaders, fare dodgers and other mickey takers definately do exist. My main concern is something like this.

There are many people out there who are not in any way railway enhusiasts or any any way knowledgeable of the tickting system, even the basics!

As someone who reads the Disputes and Prosecutions I am well aware how good intentioned people who were a bit clueless of the rules face the heavy handedness of revenue protection.

I know revenue protection have a job to do and all that jazz, and I know they will catch genuine fare dodgers daily. I get it, but at the same time innocent people who were uneducated on the line and verse of the rules of ticketing also get inevitably 'snared in the trap' from time to time


That's my point of concern

 

[Hadders]

Billions of journeys take place across the network every year without incident.

We do see lots of cases in the Disputes & Prosecutions section of the forum but these are a tiny fraction of the number of journeys made. While mistakes do happen, and in some cases train companies need to improve how the deal with some cases, it is easy to read about cases in Disputes & Prosecutions and assume this sort of thing applies to all journeys. It really doesn’t.

 

[yorkie]

If a passenger is on a time restricted ticket at an invalid time, the only fare payable is the difference between the fare paid, and the appropriate fare, including any applicable railcard discount.

There is no penalty for this, unless there is clear evidence of an attempt to deliberately purchase the wrong fare in order to avoid payment of the correct fare; for example, if a commuter was regularly purchasing off-peak tickets and requesting excess fares for their commute. For a one-off journey, there should be absolutely no question or suggestion of wrongdoing.

However, unfortunately some train companies, and some rail employees do not adhere to the rules, and act inappropriately, such as charge disproportionately high amounts, penalty fares or even report people for prosecution, over a matter that only a few years ago would have been a simple excess fare, to the right amount.

The problem is therefore not the fares themselves, or the information available about them, but the behaviour of TOCs.

Sadly there is no proper ombudsman that has any real power; the ombudsman that we have is unknowledgeable, toothless and only mediates in the event of a dispute. And it does that very badly indeed.

Sadly there is no effective regulator either; the only regulator we theoretically have is the ORR, who don't really do any actual regulating, also lack knowledge of what is going on, or what the rules are, and again don't have any real powers.

Nor is there a passenger watchdog with any powers; we have Transport Focus who don't have a clue about the rules, don't really do much, and again don't have any powers.

So there isn't anyone who can actually do anything about the dire behaviour of train companies against their customers.

 

[nanstallon]

The present situation is ridiculous, and I hope that the review directed by the previous Transport Minister will take place and grasp the nettle. At least, renationalisation will (presumably) mean the rules will be the same all over. An effective Ombudsman and a proper customer representation would also help.

 

[FinsburyPark]

So do TVMs sell tickets in validity?

Ill re phrase.

Is it possible that a TVM could sell a time-invalid off peak (single, return or day return).

If the answer is yes, or sometimes yes, then this makes part of the problem

 

[yorkie]

So do TVMs sell tickets in validity?

Ill re phrase.

Is it possible that a TVM could sell a time-invalid off peak (single, return or day return).

If the answer is yes, or sometimes yes, then this makes part of the problem

It's generally the case that they don't sell tickets at times when fares would be invalid, which can cause issues when customers want to catch a train just after the peak period ends!

 

[Hadders]

The present situation is ridiculous, and I hope that the review directed by the previous Transport Minister will take place and grasp the nettle. At least, renationalisation will (presumably) mean the rules will be the same all over. An effective Ombudsman and a proper customer representation would also help.

Be very careful what you wish for.

While harmonising off-peak restrictions sounds attractive the reality is it would result in massive fares increases and reduction in flexibility.

Feel free to post proposals for how you would like to see things harmonised but be prepared for a number of challenges to test the robustness of your proposals.

 

[jfollows]

So do TVMs sell tickets in validity?

Ill re phrase.

Is it possible that a TVM could sell a time-invalid off peak (single, return or day return).

If the answer is yes, or sometimes yes, then this makes part of the problem

TVMs not selling tickets because of the time are obnoxious - if they won’t sell a ticket not valid until 09:30 but you then have to wait until they allow you to buy the ticket and miss a valid train, it’s another reason not to use them.
Of course they need to be clear about restrictions on tickets they sell.
But instead you can buy online and pick up a ticket from the same machine if you want/need a physical ticket.

 

[FinsburyPark]

TVMs not selling tickets because of the time are obnoxious - if they won’t sell a ticket not valid until 09:30 but you then have to wait until they allow you to buy the ticket and miss a valid train, it’s another reason not to use them.
Of course they need to be clear about restrictions on tickets they sell.
But instead you can buy online and pick up a ticket from the same machine if you want/need a physical ticket.

I encountered this once.

Wanted to buy tickets for next day, was due to travel after 09.30.

The TVM would only sell full any time return when set to 'tomorrow'.

This meant i had to get up a bit earlier to be there in person to buy the ticket, which it would sell off peak before the 1st valid train departed. Was Lancing to Bournemouth I think.

P.S Bournemouth is a lovely place

 

[talldave]

I encountered this once.

Wanted to buy tickets for next day, was due to travel after 09.30.

The TVM would only sell full any time return when set to 'tomorrow'.

This meant i had to get up a bit earlier to be there in person to buy the ticket, which it would sell off peak before the 1st valid train departed. Was Lancing to Bournemouth I think.

P.S Bournemouth is a lovely place

I used to frequently have this problem at Gatwick and would stand next next to the machine, buying the ticket on Southern's website and immediately collect it from the Southern ticket machine. Idiotic.

It's even worse somewhere busy like Gatwick where you want to catch the first off- peak train but have to join a long queue, so it's impossible to sync your arrival at the machine precisely with the moment the machine grants you the ability to buy off-peak!

As for Disputes & Prosecutions - the number of threads would be massively reduced if Railcard issues were given their own subsection.

 

[JonathanH]

It's even worse somewhere busy like Gatwick where you want to catch the first off- peak train but have to join a long queue, so it's impossible to sync your arrival at the machine precisely with the moment the machine grants you the ability to buy off-peak!

The S&B machines fitted at Gatwick allow you to specify that you intend to travel at a different time, so the issue you cite is no longer a problem.

 

[tspaul26]

The definitive method is to either look at the two letter code associated with the fare (in the format nre.co.uk/XX - this is printed on the ticket nowadays)

I think National Rail in conjunction with the TOCs needs to put an off peak validity checker tool on thier website.

There already is: you insert the relevant two letter/digit code as mentioned by @Watershed

You can use the weblink format or go to this page and search for the relevant restriction code