Virgin Trains Saturday Super Off Peak Ticket Thing

[JamesM]

Hi guys.

So many of you will be aware of Virgin's Saturday Only £34.60 ticket that allows you travel to London and back in a day and a Z1-6 Travelcard.

Trying to get it is very difficult.

Firstly, can someone tell me how to find it on Virgin's own site - I can't and the customer service chat man was fairly hopeless as well.

Secondly, I'd like to go from Chester, but the last direct train back is at 18:10 - too early for me. Arriva do this connecting train from Crewe to Chester - and London Midland's site gives me options to pick where I can take this connecting train. However it is a Virgin only ticket, so I am presuming this is a (bad) mistake on the London Midland site - but it clearly highlights it as available as an option.

Anyone got a steer on if it is valid or not, as ideally I'd like to take a later train and change at Crewe. London Midland's website seems to allow this.

Thanks,

 

[sonic2009]

The tickets are routed Virgin Trains Only.. So in my opnion it would be valid on a later train but only back as far as crewe, therefore you would need possibly a single from Crewe to Chester. London, i can see your point on it showing up on London Midland as an option it seems to be only at 1840 and then 2011 only. I think London Midland's Site is wrong, but if it allows you to book this itienary then i would seek assistance from other members who will comment.. Because i would say it's not valid!

 

[First class]

Super Off Peak TCD Flows from Chester to Zones 1-6 London are valid on Arriva TW. The ticket is routed AP Rugby, not VT Only.

 

[sonic2009]

Super Off Peak TCD Flows from Chester to Zones 1-6 London are valid on Arriva TW. The ticket is routed AP Rugby, not VT Only.

yes but if you look in NFM it states in the text that the ticket is valid on Virgin Trains Only..

Restriction : VY
OUTWARD TRAVEL:

Available for date shown.
Available by Virgin train
shown.

RETURN TRAVEL:

Available for date shown.
Available by Virgin train
shown.

DESCRIPTION:
Saturday Day Travel card is a
Standard Class product
allowing customers to travel
from a number of Virgin Trains
stations to London and enjoy
unlimited travel throughout
London Fare Zones 1-6.
Reservations are compulsory
for the outward journey and
customers must travel on this
service. The return journey
can be made at any time on the
same day, although it is not
reservation compulsory,
reservations are recommended.
Please note that the ticket is
quota controlled on the
outward journey, and
reservations must be made out
of the correct quota. For
reservations for the return
journey, the default standard
class quota can be used.

AVAILABILITY:
Tickets are routed 'VIRGIN
TRNS ONLY' are valid on Virgin
services only.

Valid only on the date
specified on the ticket, and
at the time specified for the
outward journey.

 

[First class]

Rest assured it is valid on any operator between Crewe and Chester. (NRCoC S.B10)

The ticket is not routed Virgin Trns Only.

 

[John @ home]

Given that the ticket is routed AP RUGBY, the statement "AVAILABILITY: Tickets are routed 'VIRGIN TRNS ONLY' are valid on Virgin services only." is incorrect.

 

[sonic2009]

Given that the ticket is routed AP RUGBY, the statement "AVAILABILITY: Tickets are routed 'VIRGIN TRNS ONLY' are valid on Virgin services only." is incorrect.

Right okay. If we say this is incorrect information, then why does it say routed Virgin Trains Only ? and yet your saying this is incorrect.

 

[JamesM]

Do you see my dilemma? With debate here, I wonder whether the guard on a boring Saturday night will agree it's valid - especially as it so explicitly states it's valid (even on the ticket), VT Trains only!

But surely the whole point of the Crewe to Chester shuttle is to give Chester passengers a semi fast London service into the evening.

 

[First class]

It doesn't say on the ticket VT Only.

It says route: AP Rugby. Get a train that goes through Rugby (even one that doesn't stop there) on your way to Crewe and get whatever operator is there.

It is deliberately routed that way to enable customers to use ATW connections.

 

[yorkie]

yes but if you look in NFM it states in the text that the ticket is valid on Virgin Trains Only..

Avantix Traveller NFM09 shows the ticket as route: AP Rugby.

B. VALIDITY OF TICKETS
10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction
or prohibition will be shown on the ticket. If you travel in a train with a ticket that is not
valid, the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply. If you are unable to use a ticket

Is such a restriction "shown on the ticket"? The answer appears to be "No".

NFM or, simply "The Manual" as it is now known, is not available to the general public and does not form the contract between the customer and the TOCs.

If there is a doubt over validity, or there is a hidden restriction, then there is legislation that can deal with that:

The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999
Written contracts
7. - (1) A seller or supplier shall ensure that any written term of a contract is expressed in plain, intelligible language.
(2) If there is doubt about the meaning of a written term, the interpretation which is most favourable to the consumer shall prevail but this rule shall not apply in proceedings brought under regulation 12.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992083.htm

I think that the restriction text is simply a mistake, but regardless of whether it is a mistake or not, the ticket is not restricted to Virgin Trains.

 

[sonic2009]

It doesn't say on the ticket VT Only.

It says route: AP Rugby. Get a train that goes through Rugby (even one that doesn't stop there) on your way to Crewe and get whatever operator is there.

It is deliberately routed that way to enable customers to use ATW connections.

Okay we've established this ticket is routed AP Rugby, but in the NFM Text, the text is quoting Virgin Trains Only.

 

[yorkie]

Okay we've established this ticket is routed AP Rugby, but in the NFM Text, the text is quoting Virgin Trains Only.

Then they need to fix it, but it's not the customers' problem.

The East Coast site will sell this ticket, and when you hover over the price it says "Super Off Peak Day Travelcard valid via: Via Rugby".

 

[John @ home]

I agree with First class. I don't know why it says "Tickets are routed 'VIRGIN TRNS ONLY' in the National Fares Manual NFM 09 CD, but it is clear that under the word "Route" on the ticket is printed "AP RUGBY". The passenger can rely on their rights under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC):

13. The route you are entitled to take

... (c) Together, the routes referred to in (a) (ii), (a) (iii) and (b) above are the “permitted routes”.
(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.
These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.

Therefore the statement "AVAILABILITY: Tickets are routed 'VIRGIN TRNS ONLY' are valid on Virgin services only." is incorrect.

 

[JamesM]

Hi friends,

Sorry, I have a Day Travelcard from 12th March in front of me. My mistake was that it is from Crewe to London and not from Chester to London and it says VIRGIN TRNS ONLY". Does the Chester ticket say something different?

If it does, that would suggest that I could use the Chester to Crewe service on a Chester to London Day Travelcard? Since the route is different?

 

[yorkie]

Crewe - London Zones 1-6 is "Virgin Trns Only"
Chester - London Zones 1-6 is "AP Rugby"

So, yes, they are indeed routed differently.

 

[All Line Rover]

Crewe - London Zones 1-6 is "Virgin Trns Only"
Chester - London Zones 1-6 is "AP Rugby"

So, yes, they are indeed routed differently.

And of course Chester isn't VT only to allow ATW to be used on connections.

 

[JamesM]

Wonderful - does anyone know how to activate this ticket on the Virgin Trains....?

 

[John @ home]

does anyone know how to activate this ticket on the Virgin Trains?

You can buy the ticket easily online at http://www.londonmidland.com/

Ask for a return from CTR to 0035 for any Saturday.

 

[LexyBoy]

Given the ungrammatical nature of the statement "AVAILABILITY: Tickets are routed 'VIRGIN TRNS ONLY' are valid on Virgin services only.", could it be that it was supposed to read either:
"AVAILABILITY: Tickets are routed 'VIRGIN TRNS ONLY' and are valid on Virgin services only."
or
"AVAILABILITY: Tickets are routed 'VIRGIN TRNS ONLY' are valid on Virgin services only."

The first is demonstrably incorrect as tickets from Chester are not routed VT Only, whilst the second would simply confirm the restriction where it applies.

Also, the restriction text states:

RETURN TRAVEL:

Available for date shown.
Available by Virgin train
shown.

Which implies that a reservation is required for the return portion - I thought it was only the outbound which was restricted?

 

[AlterEgo]

The Saturday Day Travelcard is definitely valid between Crewe and Chester on ATW services.

Looks like the NFM has a small error in it - tickets from Chester are routed "AP Rugby".

 

[317 forever]

I am planning a Saturday out in London in October (from Stockport). From the above it seems I can travel on any train down provided I commit to one choice, but can return anytime. This mwould represent progress compared to this week last year, when I had to fix my timings both ways to qualify for Advance Singles.

 

[AlterEgo]

No, the Saturday Day Travelcard is a flexible off peak ticket. You can travel at any time on the Saturday provided you abide by the relevant restrictions on your ticket.

 

[OwlMan]

No, the Saturday Day Travelcard is a flexible off peak ticket. You can travel at any time on the Saturday provided you abide by the relevant restrictions on your ticket.

No. The outward journey is quota controlled and is only valid on the service reserved when buying the ticket. Return is by any train.

 

[AlterEgo]

Apologies - looks as though I misread. Damn tiny phone screen. Completely missed the enquiry about the outward journey. Yes, the outward journey is quota controlled and you need to stick to that service. You can return at any time on the Saturday.

As an aside, it's usually easier to buy this ticket at the station...!

 

[yorkie]

Some key extracts from the National Rail site

Tickets can be bought in advance or immediately before travel.

Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak tickets may require you to travel at specific times of day, days of the week or on a specific route.
Website journey planners can tell you when your ticket can be used – simply enter your outward and return journey times to see the trains you can travel on.
Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak tickets are valid for travel on the date shown on your ticket and until 02:30 on the following day.

Virgin Trains help pages say this about when you can use these tickets:

There are a couple of ways you can find out if Off-Peak tickets are valid on a particular route..

Search for your journey on Virgin Trains. If either Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak are listed as a ticket type then your ticket is valid.

I conclude that any attempt to claim that Super Off Peak tickets are not valid at specified times and are instead tied to booked trains only would be unlawful, and in breach of the rules.

Furthermore, the worst any guard could threaten to do to a passenger travelling on a Super Off Peak ticket that is deemed invalid would be to excess to the appropriate fare, with discounts if applicable, ie to the Off Peak Return. I would encourage anyone in this situation to refuse to hand over any money on the train and instead to obtain an Unpaid Fare Notice, which we would be very happy to assist in appealing.

 

[317 forever]

No. The outward journey is quota controlled and is only valid on the service reserved when buying the ticket. Return is by any train.

This is good enough as I can plan the most likely outbound train and keep to it. Thank you for your clarification here.