Water Water Everywhere...!!

[merlodlliw]

Once it starts to cover the sleepers then it's had it.

Cheers, that was my thought, I presume the breakers then shut off the power

Bob

 

[brianthegiant]

well I was expecting some strong reactions to that post

And your point about climate change ....
Climate change has existed since the planet was formed, and it will keep on changing until the planet dies. There is nothing anyone can do to change that ....

This particular argument (whilst popular in the media) is widely discredited scientifically, If the climate were changing according to natural long term cycles, it would be getting cooler right now not warmer.

Whilst I cannot attest to the UK, in Australia infrastructure was designed to handle fifty year events (that is an event like heavy rainfall that would normally occur once in every fifty years). With the advent of more obvious climate change as evidenced by the floods in eastern Australia two years running, infrastructure will now be built to meet one hundred year events.

That infrastrcuture will start coming into use over the next 10 years - going back and upgrading the existing infrastructure will be done on a case by case basis as funds become available. It will take a VERY long time!

I imagine it is the same in the UK - and I would imagine a lot of the existing infrastructure being even older than Australia's means that it was probably designed to handle even less than a fifty year event.

Agreed, it might not be feasible to protect victorian infrastructure from a 200 or even 100 year storm, but my point is that there are sections in the UK which don't withstand a 1 in 5 year storm.

Dyfi Junction used to flood at least every year, so NR raised the tracks & the platform. OK that particular approach wouldn't be possible near tunnels, bridges & larger stations, but is an example of how long term planning can make the railways more reliable.

 

[Oswyntail]

the wrong type of snow (E*),....

That was not E* but Thameslink - and the type of snow was virtually unprecedented in this country, consisting effectively not of snow but minute hailstones. It was not so much that the industry blamed the wrong phenomenon (think also of "Leaves on the line", perfectly reasonable), but that communication was handled either by on-site engineers/managers who were not trained in briefing media, or by people like those in the following clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sMhAMcCoRI&feature=relmfu
Why do we still have stories in the media saying that railways have been disrupted by the weather, with perhaps small paragraphs at the end saying "and everything else has gone to hell in a handcart"? Not because the railways are terrible, or not continually working to make things better, but because the industry does not take public opinion seriously in this area.

 

[Eagle]

There are some roads closed (including a stretch of the A1)

In three places. Seems quite bad for such a major route.

 

[Mikey1984]

How much water can a train pass through and what stops a train from passing through flood water?

 

[merlodlliw]

How much water can a train pass through and what stops a train from passing through flood water?

The answer to third rail is within these threads, I asked similar,with diesels if the air intake is below water level & sucking in water,or the tracks are under flowing water, a chance the ballast may have been washed away I imagine, others will have a better knowledge of the subject.

Some of the Chester/Crewe/Wrexham/Salop lines tend to be in low embankments if I recall with fields saturated floods are inevitable.

Bob

 

[DarloRich]

ECML Closed between York and Newcastle due to flooding at Northallerton & Darlington

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/galleries/septemberfloods/

and

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/9947070.Live_coverage_of_floods_throughout_region/

and

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/today.html

 

[Old-School]

How much water can a train pass through and what stops a train from passing through flood water?

The following criteria (rules taken from RSSB Rule Book) comes into play during flooding
i) Up to the bottom of the rail head normal working.
ii) Up to the top of the rail head maximum speed 5 mph.
iii) Above the top of the rail head movements only permitted by instructions from Operations Control.
However, at any depth if flood water is moving and likely to dislodge the ballast or has dislodged ballast, trains must be stopped and wait for further instructions from Operations Control.

 

[merlodlliw]

NR are giving this info now 1600 Chester - Wrexham General
Trains are not able to run between Chester and Wrexham General.

ATW are saying this at 1600 Following flooding earlier between Chester and Shrewsbury the line has now reopened.

So you takes your pick, confusing or what
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The following criteria (rules taken from RSSB Rule Book) comes into play during flooding
i) Up to the bottom of the rail head normal working.
ii) Up to the top of the rail head maximum speed 5 mph.
iii) Above the top of the rail head movements only permitted by instructions from Operations Control.
However, at any depth if flood water is moving and likely to dislodge the ballast or has dislodged ballast, trains must be stopped and wait for further instructions from Operations Control.

Indeed the 5mph was in operation at Flint yesterday.

 

[Ascot]

Fun and games at New St today, trying to get to Coventry with lots of delays. Now on a wedged 16:53 350/2 waiting for everyone to be kicked out of first as I've just seen an RPI get on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Very confusing today at Chester.
Was intending to do a circular trip Chester-Shrewsbury-Crewe-Chester at about 1000.
Booking office reluctant to sell me a ticket because although the Shrewsbury line was then open, "we might not be able to get you back".
I opted just for Crewe, knowing the direct route was closed, and was treated(!) to a VT run via Delamere and Middlewich - desperately slow 20mph for the entire 8 miles of the Middlewich branch.
Would you believe there are new Manchester South signals staring into the derelict undergrowth of the old salt sidings?

At Crewe, the train was exactly 60min late.
Meanwhile the next hourly Voyager (which would normally have gone to Chester and back) was due to start from bay platform 7 at the same time!
Eventually it left 10 minutes after the first train but it was not the best-managed use of resources, with two Voyagers chasing each other up to Euston.

Came back via Warrington, confidently expecting to beat the return Voyager via Middlewich, only to find the direct line had been opened and it had beaten me to it!
Although things seemed to be getting back to normal, within the hour there were new closures via Rhyl and Wrexham.
As far as I could see, the West Coast and Marches routes were running pretty well to time (except Chester).

The ticket machines at Chester had stickers saying not to purchase tickets to Liverpool because the line was closed and there was no Merseyrail replacement bus service - but there was a fleet of replacement buses right outside the station!
In any case you could have gone via Warrington (where I watched a local to Liverpool leave completely empty).

Best observation of the day was the VT conductor on Crewe-Warrington, which was carrying diverted EC/XC passengers for Edinburgh. He gave everybody detailed route information for crossing Glasgow and took a lot of time with each passenger.

Worst observation: new segregated routes over the footbridge at Chester.
Clumsily done and another affront to the station's heritage.
Includes two extra sets of steps for the infirm to negotiate.

Sorry for the ramble. Just to give the flavour of the day.
Massive amounts of flooded fields around the Weaver and Gowy en route.
And it's still raining.

 

[merlodlliw]

Not a ramble, a good read, thankfully the downpour advised did not occur today,well up here anyway, since 0500 Monday to 1700 this afternoon,I have recorded over four inches of rain (one & half months), never seen so many floods, land up here in Bwlchgwyn/Gwynfryn (over 1.400 ft) saturated.
Part of the hardcore from my lane is a mile away so I know how rail ballast can shift.


Bob

 

[ChiefPlanner]

One thing for traversing flood water , is the not desired action of getting water into the roller bearings .....

During a particular crises some years ago , I asked the question regarding the danger to berthed 321 stock in the appropriately named River Sidings at Northampton - suffice it to say the stock was moved away "just in case" - a good move I thought. (that was the Easter flooding of 1997 , when a down sleeper of Euston got to Rugby around 9am the next morning following severe flooding in both Kilsby and Hunbury tunnels - sleeper gamely set off and ran into a blizzard in the Trent Valley , causing severe points failures. Real tryers that crew were)

 

[ATW Alex 101]

ellesmere port and chester lines flooded halfway upto platforms

 

[Tracky]

Worst observation: new segregated routes over the footbridge at Chester.
Clumsily done and another affront to the station's heritage.
Includes two extra sets of steps for the infirm to negotiate.

The footbridge alterations are not going to stay long term but are part of a plan for allowing the bridge to remain in use while the refurbishment takes place. The blue steps are a sturdy short term addition. The plans for the bridge show a great improvement with the removal of the tin sides and excrement.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Delays across Chat Moss. No surprise. It is lashing it down.

 

[aylesbury]

We are all doomed, DOOMED ,do you ken.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Feel sorry for people heading down to the south west today. Wasn't affected as I was only heading between Bristol and Bath, but all the XC services through Temple Meads seemed to be cancelled earlier this evening.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The footbridge alterations are not going to stay long term but are part of a plan for allowing the bridge to remain in use while the refurbishment takes place. The blue steps are a sturdy short term addition. The plans for the bridge show a great improvement with the removal of the tin sides and excrement.

Great. Look forward to the finished article.
The engineers were certainly getting on with it in atrocious weather today.

 

[M60lad]

There was also flooding tonight between Westhoughton and Bolton, I know because I was stuck for a while on 16:48 Wigan Wallgate-Rochdale just outside Crow Nest junction, eventually we got moving but when we got towards Westhoughton we slowed right down and engineers were on the scene making sure trains ran through ok and at the required speed (5mph)

One question about the recent floods how long is it usually before passengers are de-trained in a flood situation or do they actually have to stop on the train, just something I was thinking about while sat at the red signal

 

[ainsworth74]

The following criteria (rules taken from RSSB Rule Book) comes into play during flooding
i) Up to the bottom of the rail head normal working.
ii) Up to the top of the rail head maximum speed 5 mph.
iii) Above the top of the rail head movements only permitted by instructions from Operations Control.
However, at any depth if flood water is moving and likely to dislodge the ballast or has dislodged ballast, trains must be stopped and wait for further instructions from Operations Control.

Though of course different areas of the world have different rules, for example in Argentina it seems that the trains will keep running even through this:

[youtube]uTDpFYXmkqk[/youtube]

 

[mullin]

I've seen the line at Parbold tonight, it's a mess. What is usually a tiny stream is well outside its channel and flowing very fast over the line. If anyone wants to look on a map, the line is flooded from the A5209 (where the stream is) to the station, where the subway is too under a fair few feet of water (despite being pumped earlier today)

 

[TheJRB]

I'm surprised things are holding out OK in the south east. Where I am, it's been raining practically non-stop all day and we've had lightning on and off for about three hours now.

 

[Ascot]

Touch wood I've been quite fortunate this week with location. Today's wacky adventure is the 11:31 from Birmingham to Manchester so fingers crossed the "North" holds out.

 

[Crossover]

One question about the recent floods how long is it usually before passengers are de-trained in a flood situation or do they actually have to stop on the train, just something I was thinking about while sat at the red signal

I would have thought it would depend on the situation...having passengers trying to walk (or swim!) along flooded ballast is probably not such a wise idea

 

[HSTEd]

Short of building giant several metre diameter storm drain tunnels all over the place with high powered bailing pumps to match... not much that can be done.

(Although that it is not neccesarily a bad idea...).

 

[Greenback]

For information, I have deleted some posts in order to remove disrespectful comments and associated discussions.