Waterloo international- old Eurostar route

[Pompey00]

Just wondering out of curiosity.

can anyone tell me the old route the eurostar use to go after leaving Waterloo international onwards to the channel tunnel and its destination

Cheers

 

[Alex Mihai]

I can't say for sure when it comes to destination, but the normal route would have been Waterloo - Herne Hill - Beckenham Junction - Bromley South - Swanley and then towards HS1 from Fawkham Junction (just after Farningham Road).
There were also times when it was routed via the Catford Loop, mainly in case of disruptions on the normal route.
Red is the main route, blue is the diversionary Catford Loop variant.

 

[MotCO]

The route also went from Bronley South to Petts Wood, Orpington and Sevenoaks. I remember a Eurostar broke down for about 6 hours at Chelsfield Station en route to the tunnel - the passengers on board looked distinctly bored!

 

[Pompey00]

Thankyou so much

 

[Bald Rick]

Some also routed Bromley South - Swanley - Maidstone East - Ashford - Tunnel, and a variant Swanley - Bat & Ball - Sevenoaks - Tonbridge - Tunnel.

 

[eastwestdivide]

To clarify, there were two stages of HS1. Before either stage opened, the various routes via Tonbridge or Maidstone East were used as in posts 3 and 5 above. Then, once the first (easternmost) stage of HS1 opened, it was via the spur at Fawkham, as in post 2 above.

 

[Pompey00]

Cheers for the info much appreciated.

 

[DidcotDickie]

Cheers for the info much appreciated.

Before the opening of the first stage of HS1, Eurostars mostly went as per post #2 via Petts Wood, Sevenoaks and Tonbridge on the old Boat Train Route (BTR1). I did one Paris trip when we had a scenic diversion via Swanley, Otford, Bat & Ball and Sevenoaks which I think was BTR2 which the Eurostar 373s were cleared for. Never did one on BTR3 via Maidstone East.

 

[Pompey00]

Before the opening of the first stage of HS1, Eurostars mostly went as per post #2 via Petts Wood, Sevenoaks and Tonbridge on the old Boat Train Route (BTR1). I did one Paris trip when we had a scenic diversion via Swanley, Otford, Bat & Ball and Sevenoaks which I think was BTR2 which the Eurostar 373s were cleared for. Never did one on BTR3 via Maidstone East.

A lot of history behind it then

 

[mike57]

I did the Waterloo - Ashford - Tunnel route before HS1 was open in 1999 to view the total eclipse in Northern France, and my memory is of a slow grind out of South London to the tunnel. For someone living in Yorkshire the opening of HS1 to St Pancras was a real game changer.

Its also interesting to look at earlier plans for an 'HS1' which included a lot of tunneling under South London. Not sure how seriously these were being taken at the time but quite a different route to the one finally chosen (Which to be fair in terminating at St Pancras gives good onward connectivity to a much larger part of the country)

 

[The exile]

As I’m sure I’ve mentioned before, on at least one occasion a train ran in service via a reversal at Kensington Olympia - though that was very much the exception. I was also on one that did a “two point turn” (ie double reversal) in the Chislehurst junction complex (sorry, can’t remember all the proper names or look them up atm) - but again that was “coping on the day” rather than anything official.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I did the Waterloo - Ashford - Tunnel route before HS1 was open in 1999 to view the total eclipse in Northern France, and my memory is of a slow grind out of South London to the tunnel. For someone living in Yorkshire the opening of HS2 to St Pancras was a real game changer.

Its also interesting to look at earlier plans for an 'HS1' which included a lot of tunneling under South London. Not sure how seriously these were being taken at the time but quite a different route to the one finally chosen (Which to be fair in terminating at St Pancras gives good onward connectivity to a much larger part of the country)

Those plans were taken very seriously, I think BR had started buying up property in Peckham where the tunnel portal would be.

I grew up in South London and would spend the whole of my time at the Lambeth Country Show at Brockwell Park focused on the railway viaduct to spot Eurostars. Even after all these years I still miss seeing them.

 

[Taunton]

The routes initially were fundamentally the classic boat train alternatives, once the old route from Victoria was joined a mile or two out. There were various reasons why this range of routes was both available (mostly 19th century history) and line capacity on the main route, extensively 2-tracked with two lengthy tunnels.

I did once go outwards, crossing over to the north lines at Bromley South, then a lengthy signal stop near St Mary Cray which I suspect was asking the driver if they signed via Maidstone, which we eventually continued to, grinding round the curves through Maidstone East, losing our path through the tunnel and thus getting caught on the climbout behind a slow lorry shuttle, and ending up in Paris about an hour late.

It always seemed a bit strange to be running through Vauxhall. I think the initial plan was just to use the northernmost of the Windsor Lines both ways, essentially as a single line, to keep clear of the suburban service, but later they ran conventionally.

 

[MotCO]

I was also on one that did a “two point turn” (ie double reversal) in the Chislehurst junction complex (sorry, can’t remember all the proper names or look them up atm) - but again that was “coping on the day” rather than anything official.

Can you explain what actually happened? The junction (I think it is Petts Wood Junction) is a clover leaf junction. Did you go straight on towards St Mary Cray, then reverse back to Chislehurst, before then moving straight on to Petts Wood? I'm sure that that would not all be 'signed'. Any idea why this happened?

 

[swt_passenger]

Those plans were taken very seriously, I think BR had started buying up property in Peckham where the tunnel portal would be.

I grew up in South London and would spend the whole of my time at the Lambeth Country Show at Brockwell Park focused on the railway viaduct to spot Eurostars. Even after all these years I still miss seeing them.

Plans of the intended underground London station location and the track layout under the Kings Cross area at the end of that proposed tunnel were posted here not that long ago, I’ll try and find them, the route ended up approaching parallel to the lines from Farringdon to Kings Cross. Here we are - as you can see from the title it starts out on a different subject:

Could HS2 have terminated at St Pancras?

Would have had to be pretty deep to miss all the existing LU lines and station tunnels, so I think it’s hard to picture exactly where it would have gone in relation to the two existing mainline stations. I’ve read somewhere that it was to be on a NW/SE alignment. That's about right. When I get...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Plans of the intended underground London station location and the track layout under the Kings Cross area at the end of that proposed tunnel were posted here not that long ago, I’ll try and find them, the route ended up approaching parallel to the lines from Farringdon to Kings Cross. Here we are - as you can see from the title it starts out on a different subject:

Could HS2 have terminated at St Pancras?

Would have had to be pretty deep to miss all the existing LU lines and station tunnels, so I think it’s hard to picture exactly where it would have gone in relation to the two existing mainline stations. I’ve read somewhere that it was to be on a NW/SE alignment. That's about right. When I get...

www.railforums.co.uk

Yes-I’ve saved the file! I also have photographs of route maps from the BR Comparison of Routes report in 1991 I got my hands on once.

 

[eastwestdivide]

The routes initially were fundamentally the classic boat train alternatives...

Except via Chatham, which was another classic boat train alternative.

 

[Beebman]

Except via Chatham, which was another classic boat train alternative.

Slightly O/T but in 1988 I remember being on a CEP boat train from Charing X to Dover which unexpectedly turned left at Chislehurst Jct, then after a somewhat lengthy stop at Swanley (probably the signaller asking the driver if they signed the route) the train continued via Chatham but it was a straight run and ISTR its arrival at Priory wasn't much behind schedule.

Going back on topic, in the 90s I was on Tunnel-bound Eurostars which did the Catford and Maidstone East diversions, the latter seeming slow and tortutous, but I never had a diversion on any London-bound trains.

 

[The exile]

Can you explain what actually happened? The junction (I think it is Petts Wood Junction) is a clover leaf junction. Did you go straight on towards St Mary Cray, then reverse back to Chislehurst, before then moving straight on to Petts Wood? I'm sure that that would not all be 'signed'. Any idea why this happened?

From what I remember it was either that or the exact opposite (ie heading initially via Petts Wood but ultimately going via Bat & Ball) It was dark and vile weather. I think that was the time the train was terminated at Ashford and we were put onto the following Brussels service - itself quite a bit late. If so, it was the occasion when I caused the TM quite a bit of consternation as he came through to sort out passengers requiring onward connections at Brussels. The various Leuvens / Mechelens / Bruges were swiftly dealt with - then I piped up with “Hamburg”. Cue one deep intake of breath. The sleeper was held, clearly only for me, as the doors were shut and we were moving less than a minute after I’d boarded.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Its also interesting to look at earlier plans for an 'HS1' which included a lot of tunneling under South London. Not sure how seriously these were being taken at the time but quite a different route to the one finally chosen (Which to be fair in terminating at St Pancras gives good onward connectivity to a much larger part of the country)

Those plans were taken very seriously, I think BR had started buying up property in Peckham where the tunnel portal would be.

Indeed - and by compulsory purchase I think. I know a family who had to move as a result of this... the elegant houses that were to be demolished are very much still standing.

There was an active campaign against the CTRL being routed this way called "Sink the Link", which ran from 1988 to 1991 - there's a brief reference to the campaign here, and a 2004 photo of the old motto graffitied on a railway bridge near Farningham Road station in Kent (no longer there as per Streetview).

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Indeed - and by compulsory purchase I think. I know a family who had to move as a result of this... the elegant houses that were to be demolished are very much still standing.

There was an active campaign against the CTRL being routed this way called "Sink the Link", which ran from 1988 to 1991 - there's a brief reference to the campaign here, and a 2004 photo of the old motto graffitied on a railway bridge near Farningham Road station in Kent (no longer there as per Streetview).

It would have been a dire waste, because had it had been built, I doubt the underground Kings Cross station would have ever been built. I imagine the tunnels to Kings Cross would end somewhere under west Peckham. So the Eurostar would have ended at Waterloo. Which for me would have been welcomed.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Once via Maidstone East, never via Bat and Ball, often via Petts Wood. Service quality improved a lot once the first part of HS1 opened from Fawkham Jct.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I can't say for sure when it comes to destination, but the normal route would have been Waterloo - Herne Hill - Beckenham Junction - Bromley South - Swanley and then towards HS1 from Fawkham Junction (just after Farningham Road).
There were also times when it was routed via the Catford Loop, mainly in case of disruptions on the normal route.
Red is the main route, blue is the diversionary Catford Loop variant.

View attachment 164897

I wonder what the timings would be compared to HS1 as built with BR's routing that joined the existing line at Peckham... I think I worked it out once and estimated it would be 10 mins slower? Happy to be corrected.

Also, interesting how "steeply" the Catford Loop turns northwards after Bromley instead of north-westwards. Obviously because the first section of that route went to Crystal Palace rather than Bromley.

 

[30907]

Also, interesting how "steeply" the Catford Loop turns northwards after Bromley instead of north-westwards. Obviously because the first section of that route went to Crystal Palace rather than Bromley.

It follows the valley of the Ravensbourne, though with an awkward climb to join the existing route which cuts across the grain towards Beckenham at Shortlands Jn.

 

[coupwotcoup]

Again, slightly tangential, but it in May 2000 I was returning to Blighty and we got as far as Ashford at circa 20.30pm then ground to a halt.

The announcement came to say that the tunnels on both routes back to London had been blocked so we had to sit it out.

Not sure what the route would have been but we eventually pulled into Waterloo at around 04.30am, with E* having seconded every black cab
available to take passengers on to their final destination.

 

[stadler]

Again, slightly tangential, but it in May 2000 I was returning to Blighty and we got as far as Ashford at circa 20.30pm then ground to a halt.

The announcement came to say that the tunnels on both routes back to London had been blocked so we had to sit it out.

Not sure what the route would have been but we eventually pulled into Waterloo at around 04.30am, with E* having seconded every black cab
available to take passengers on to their final destination.

That is a very long delay. I am surprised they did not just arrange ticket acceptance and tell passengers to alight at Ashford and get Southern (or Connex South Central as it was back then) services via Hastings and Eastbourne and Lewes to reach London via the BML route.

I presume your train just waited until the tunnels were cleared. Considering the long delay it sounds like it probably waited for one of the usual routes to be reopened rather than going via an unusual route.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Again, slightly tangential, but it in May 2000 I was returning to Blighty and we got as far as Ashford at circa 20.30pm then ground to a halt.

The announcement came to say that the tunnels on both routes back to London had been blocked so we had to sit it out.

Not sure what the route would have been but we eventually pulled into Waterloo at around 04.30am, with E* having seconded every black cab
available to take passengers on to their final destination.

There was another poster a few years ago who recalled a fascinating and disconcerting story from the 90s when their Eurostar was so disrupted it was diverted into a (closed) Kensington Olympia station resulting in the Eurostar staff having to break down the station gates in order to get passengers out!

These old Eurostar memory threads are brilliant. I was around for when the Eurostar was a “Southern Region” service (in my mind it still is), but was only a kid. I lost interest in seeing the Eurostar in south London because you’d think things will stay the same forever as a child! Peers my age are astonished when I tell them the Eurostar originally went from Waterloo through Clapham and Brixton.

 

[30907]

That is a very long delay. I am surprised they did not just arrange ticket acceptance and tell passengers to alight at Ashford and get Southern (or Connex South Central as it was back then) services via Hastings and Eastbourne and Lewes to reach London via the BML route.

A 2-car 171 (or was it a Thumper back then) would have struggled to carry many of them though

 

[GatwickDepress]

I remember being taken to Tonbridge to see the Eurostars creep through. Next to the comparatively ancient slammers, the Eurostars were so sleek and futuristic, but seemed much filthier than the slammers - Connex painting the top half of cab ends entirely black was a wise decision.

A 2-car 171 (or was it a Thumper back then) would have struggled to carry many of them though

Still the stalwart three-car Thumpers back then, as the 171s wouldn't see introduction until 2003! At least Connex had the same colours as Eurostar though, so minimal passenger confusion .

 

[Strathclyder]

YT user traindriver35 has some excellent clips of this era of Eurostar dotted around his channel. Have attached them below (the latter two aren't focused on E*, but contain clips of them; the HST/373 race at Vauxhall is a particular highlight):