Watford Junction to London Liverpool Street trains

[Springs Branch]

Here's a question about the short-lived peak-hour trains operated by Network SouthEast between Watford Junction and Liverpool St via Primrose Hill in the late 1980s.

These began running into Liverpool St after Broad Street station had closed in June 1986 using the specially-built Graham Road curve to access the GE line near London Fields. Class 313s transferred from the Great Northern were used and the sparse service lingered on until 1992.

As I understand it, at that time most of the North London Line was equipped with third rail only, regular Richmond/North Woolwich service was operated by ex-SR 2EPBs, and upgrading of the NLL and 25kV electrification was still a few years away.

So where did the Class 313s on the Watford/Liverpool Street trains change between DC/AC?

Presumably the Graham Road curve was electrified with OHLE from its construction, and third rail was never installed on the GE route towards Liverpool St.

Was a section of 25kV OHLE installed along the NLL into Dalston Kingsland station for these trains, with changeover done there?

It sounds a very extravagant scheme for 2 trains per day each way, Mon-Fri, but I guess there was a *lot* of money to be made from development of the Broad Street site.

 

[rogercov]

I'm happy to be corrected on this, but I believe that the trains stopped on the Graham Road curve to change over. The curve was long enough to take a 313 unit, so only the curve itself would need both 3rd rail and overhead.

 

[Wirewiper]

It sounds a very extravagant scheme for 2 trains per day each way, Mon-Fri, but I guess there was a *lot* of money to be made from development of the Broad Street site.

Got it in one. The land value of the Broad Street Station site was colossal, the rents for the finished buildings even more so. It is reckoned that the whole development paid for itself within twelve years.

 

[edwin_m]

I'm happy to be corrected on this, but I believe that the trains stopped on the Graham Road curve to change over. The curve was long enough to take a 313 unit, so only the curve itself would need both 3rd rail and overhead.

At some stage in its history the curve was connected to 25kV both ends, because there were all sorts of electrical shenanigans needed to make it work. I think this was while the regular service was still operating, but perhaps not on day 1.

 

[tom73]

I would imagine the service saw very little use simply because it would be the first thing to be cancelled if a unit was needed elsewhere and so could not be relied on.

 

[Taunton]

I was working near Liverpool Street when the service started, and at 8.30 walked over to see the first arrival. Very light load.

The electrical issues started when the 25Kv was extended from Camden Road for freights along the NLL, also in the 1980s, and went on through the extension of the DC to Stratford and then Graham Road. All sorts of unexpected stray currents, including extraordinarily interfering with the Victoria Line signalling underneath at Highbury. It led eventually to abandoning the DC everywhere there was dual electrification, and the 313 units changed system at least 4 times (and maybe 6) between Richmond and North Woolwich.

It was extraordinary how between the 1960s and the 1980s the substantial peak traffic from the Watford DC line to Broad Street, which had a very frequent peak service, was completely lost. Colleague at aforementioned Liverpool Street office who commuted by the Metropolitan from Pinner, during the not infrequent LT strikes of the era used to come instead from Hatch End to Broad Street.

 

[Ken H]

I caught the down train one evening. The train was nearly empty. I used a nuneaton-london terminals return.

Is the grahan road curve still in use at all? Is it still even connected?

One issue with dual electrification is that the DC can cause corrosion in the 25Kv metalwork.

The 313s also accelerate better on 25kv

 

[transmanche]

I would imagine the service saw very little use simply because it would be the first thing to be cancelled if a unit was needed elsewhere and so could not be relied on.

The route via the Graham Road curve was also quite a long way round to reach the City. I imagine that it was probably quicker to travel into Euston and take the Northern line.

 

[Wirewiper]

I would imagine the service saw very little use simply because it would be the first thing to be cancelled if a unit was needed elsewhere and so could not be relied on.

It was also canned when there were staff shortages - it was more productive to use the drivers on Euston-Watford as they could cover two rounders.

 

[306024]

I'm happy to be corrected on this, but I believe that the trains stopped on the Graham Road curve to change over. The curve was long enough to take a 313 unit, so only the curve itself would need both 3rd rail and overhead.

Likewise I’m happy to be corrected too but my recollection was of the changeover being in Dalton Kingsland. It doesn’t make sense to electrify the new curve with two forms of electricity when one would suffice, and I can’t recall any third rail on the curve itself.

The line is still connected both ends. It was useful when the West Anglia fleet was maintained at Hornsey up to around 2006 ish. Today probably only a NR measurement train uses it to prove it’s still there.

 

[Ken H]

Likewise I’m happy to be corrected too but my recollection was of the changeover being in Dalton Kingsland. It doesn’t make sense to electrify the new curve with two forms of electricity when one would suffice, and I can’t recall any third rail on the curve itself.

The line is still connected both ends. It was useful when the West Anglia fleet was maintained at Hornsey up to around 2006 ish. Today probably only a NR measurement train uses it to prove it’s still there.

Did it go through formal closure or was it a speller service?

 

[rogercov]

Is the grahan road curve still in use at all? Is it still even connected?

It's still in occasional use, but this example appears to be diesel-powered
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U79502/2019/08/27/advanced
It's tonight if anyone wants to see what it is

 

[306024]

It's still in occasional use, but this example appears to be diesel-powered
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U79502/2019/08/27/advanced
It's tonight if anyone wants to see what it is

Must be being specially built in platform 8 at Liverpool St as there’s nothing obvious in RTT arriving to form it, the previous working in platform 8 simply being a Stansted Express that forms ECS to Orient Way.

Trust a roving reporter will be despatched to observe.

Did it go through formal closure or was it a speller service?

Seem to recall closure posters at Liverpool St, but it was all a long while ago.

 

[randyrippley]

going slightly off-topic, but was the fourth rail on the NLL removed when the 2-EPBs were introduced, or did they just use three rails of a four rail system?

 

[Taunton]

going slightly off-topic, but was the fourth rail on the NLL removed when the 2-EPBs were introduced, or did they just use three rails of a four rail system?

Have to do it in stages. First is to change the supply from +420/-210 between the current rails to +630/0. The train just sees the same potential difference. This can be done in stages, as long as you insert neutral sections between the different types. Then sort out the track circuit immunisation. Then bond the running rails and the 4th rail together. Once this is complete you can adapt any old rolling stock (the 501s) to running rail return. Now you could run the 2-EPB. The easiest way to do this was initially to just drop the now bonded centre (onetime negative, now earth) rail down to the sleepers, because that has all the connections back to the substation. Finally you can enhance earth return via the running rails and remove he old centre rail, at your leisure.

I don't know if this was the start of the troubles at Highbury and elsewhere, or the 25Kv. The 2-EPB did not have much current return requirement, they only had one motor bogie, the 313s drew a lot more current, and of course a 25Kv locomotive on a freight was way ahead. The 2-EPB were a little short of power down at North Woolwich where the only power was what came down the single conductor rail from Stratford substation, there was only one train in the single track section beyond Custom House at a time.

 

[edwin_m]

Have to do it in stages. First is to change the supply from +420/-210 between the current rails to +630/0. The train just sees the same potential difference. This can be done in stages, as long as you insert neutral sections between the different types.

The neutral section would have to be long enough that the shoes didn't electrically bridge between the two supply systems, otherwise you're connectiong +420 to +630 which is going to result in - at least - a big bang and some circuit breakers dropping out. This isn't so much of a problem for the ones at Putney and somewhere near Queens Park, as LU stock only has the pickups electrically linked within one car. Did the 501s when in four-rail configuration only have the same, or did they have DC bus wires through the train like third-rail units?

 

[Taunton]

I recall they had pickup shoes on the driving trailer at the other end as well. It would be difficult to operate over complex pointwork like outside Euston without this. Old DC driving style was just to accelerate from each station up to speed, then shut off and coast for a good way before braking for the next station. Keep the neutral section away from any signals and you will be fine.

Was a section of 25kV OHLE installed along the NLL into Dalston Kingsland station for these trains, with changeover done there?

25Kv was already installed there. This was a scheme from earlier in the 1980s to allow electric freights along the NLL. It was wired through Primrose Hill, then along to Dalston, which is 4-track, it was wired on the north side tracks and DC on the south side "local" tracks, which turned off to Broad Street. The 25Kv went through to Stratford allowing electric freights from East Anglia etc to run through to the WCML. By the time the Liverpool Street diversion started it was also DC as well, for the 2-EPB service. I can't remember if the 2-EPB North Woolwich service and the Liverpool Street diversion started on the same day, but I think they did.

It seemed the various electrical and track arrangements changed almost every year at this time. The starting point of it all had been changing the GEML over from 6.25Kv to 25Kv, allowing locomotives to operate there.

 

[rogercov]

Likewise I’m happy to be corrected too but my recollection was of the changeover being in Dalton Kingsland. It doesn’t make sense to electrify the new curve with two forms of electricity when one would suffice, and I can’t recall any third rail on the curve itself.

I stand corrected. I had forgotten that the NLL was already wired for freight by that time. In that case it would certainly have made sense to change over at Dalton Kingsland.

 

[Taunton]

As well as seeing the first 313 into Liverpool Street, I also went over to see the last dmu leave North Woolwich, the previous Friday evening. This was preceded by shadowy figures down on the track in the dark (3rd rail live by this time), then as it set off with a few toots on the horn a huge fusillade of detonators, which must have astounded the nearby residents. It was quite worthy of New Year at Taunton shed in my youth, when all the date-expired detonators were put on the shed outlet track and run over by a locomotive at midnight. It just lacked the whistles of all the locos in steam being sounded.

And not long before, when at a loose end on a Sunday (something Mrs Taunton later entering my life put an end to, of course!) I went over when new at Canary Wharf to have a look at the Woolwich ferry, and encountered the conductor rail installation team between Silvertown and North Woolwich. What a simple and straightforward operation compared to putting in the GW electrification. Class 08, engineering wagons with the rail, craned over the side and installed on the insulators. Propel forward to the next length and repeat. I don't know if they did the whole length in one Sunday, but they were making astounding progress.

 

[transmanche]

going slightly off-topic, but was the fourth rail on the NLL removed when the 2-EPBs were introduced, or did they just use three rails of a four rail system?

The fourth rail was long-gone well before the 2-EPBs were introduced to the NLL. The Class 501s were converted to third rail operation in 1970.

 

[Taunton]

The 4th may still have been there, but a change to earth return did happen then. This allowed other DC units to use the system. Here's a Southern 4-COR at Croxley Green in 1970 on a railtour, probably arranged once the conversion became known. However, Croxley depot continued to be used to stable Bakerloo trains for about another 15 years, for which the 4th rail was necessary as well.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/headcode/14001342328

 

[Springs Branch]

25Kv was already installed there. This was a scheme from earlier in the 1980s to allow electric freights along the NLL. It was wired through Primrose Hill, then along to Dalston, which is 4-track, it was wired on the north side tracks and DC on the south side "local" tracks, which turned off to Broad Street. The 25Kv went through to Stratford allowing electric freights from East Anglia etc to run through to the WCML. By the time the Liverpool Street diversion started it was also DC as well, for the 2-EPB service. I can't remember if the 2-EPB North Woolwich service and the Liverpool Street diversion started on the same day, but I think they did.

It seemed the various electrical and track arrangements changed almost every year at this time. The starting point of it all had been changing the GEML over from 6.25Kv to 25Kv, allowing locomotives to operate there.

I may be wrong, but was under impression that the Railfreight-sponsored 25kV electrification eastwards from Camden Road did not happen until the late 80s (1988?), leaving a couple of years between the start of the Liverpool St/Watford Jn trains. Although the section from the WCML slow lines through Primrose Hill station almost to Camden Road seems to have been wired at the same time as Euston around 1966 - witness the 1960s-era masts there.

The story of how the NLL jigsaw has been put together over the past 50 years is fascinating. I've realised this from trying to Google the answer to traction changeover on the Graham Road curve before I posted here, and it's prompted me to order a copy of Wayne Asher's book "A Very Political Railway" - although I'm not sure how deeply the book goes into the technical detail we're talking about here.

I've also been half-expecting user @ChiefPlanner might chip in, as he seems knowledgeable on all things Watford DC.

 

[transmanche]

The 4th may still have been there, but a change to earth return did happen then.

Obviously, the fourth rail remained in situ (albeit bonded to the running rails) for use by Bakerloo line trains north of Queen's Park, but that didn't apply to the NLL.

Here's a Class 501 at Highbury & Islington in 1983, with the fourth rail long gone.


Class 501 Highbury & Islington 16/10/83 by Stapleton Road, on Flickr

 

[ChiefPlanner]

On cue - the greater AC electrification of the NLL for freight was done in 1985 at very affordable prices. The idea was to run "an electric horseshoe from Willesden Brent to the ECML for freight connectivity , which was duly done for the great and the good with a short rake of 1st class air con vehicles + diner , and a well scrubbed up rake of the newest wagons of the time. This was succesfull , but not particularly well used on this axis. BR was very good at cheap infill electric schemes.

The DC did not need the 4th rail north of Harrow and W , after the cutbacks in service on the Bakerloo (after the "Fare's Fair" debacle and subsequent collapse in revenue around 1983) , it was nice work for the LT crews but not very productive as they had to travel passenger back on these peak workings to and from Croxley Shed. That and the transfer of 313;s enable the shed to close and the land sold of.

The track condition of the DC was frankly , shocking in my time 1996-1999 , and through various chanells we got a considerable improvement and some hefty renewals. A lot of it was bullhead , and very little relying had been done since 1951 (from records).

Even the resignaling was done on the cheap and the money ran out towards the north end , giving some very low headways north of Harrow! One afternoon there was a points failure in the Harrow and Wealdstone turnback and one of my proactive manages "persuaded" a Bakerloo motorman to go to Watford and back to clear the line - which he duly did in a cascade of sparks and blue smoke. No harm done and I do not recall if there was any fallout from the Line Controller (though he may have wondered where one of his sets had got to) , the old boy motorman probably enjoyed a last trip down there.

 

[JBuchananGB]

I’ve got a book on the evolution of London Overground which includes all the steps of development of the NLL, and includes the fact that the changeover of traction supply took place at Dalton Kingsland.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I’ve got a book on the evolution of London Overground which includes all the steps of development of the NLL, and includes the fact that the changeover of traction supply took place at Dalton Kingsland.

Yes - and also at Acton Central. There was a lot of change with the EPS wiring after the blockade from Willesden HL - Camden Road (exc) , also Willesden HL to "North Pole" 1996. My era.

Whilst the block via Hampstead Heath overan by 6 months ! , the West London line element was delivered early , allowing the end of the awful 117 units on the Clapham - Willesden shuttle as it then was.

 

[rogercov]

Must be being specially built in platform 8 at Liverpool St as there’s nothing obvious in RTT arriving to form it, the previous working in platform 8 simply being a Stansted Express that forms ECS to Orient Way.
Trust a roving reporter will be despatched to observe.

I noticed from RTT that it appeared to run between Liverpool Street and somewhere North of Bethnal Green, going backwards and forwards a few times, using various platforms at Liv St, before making the final run via the curve onto the NLL. This caused RTT to temporarily report a number of journeys running early, each of which was subsequently overwritten by the later one.
Did anyone actually go out to see what it was? I'm guessing some kind of track maintenance machine.

On the subject of the Graham Road curve, I notice that there's a booked slot for a class 710 test run every Sunday between July and December from Willesden to Liverpoool Street. It uses the curve before visiting various destinations. It's unlikely to run this Sunday due to NLL engineering works, but I expect we will see a few workings before the end of the year.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C01752/2019/09/01/advanced

 

[306024]

Wild guess as I'm nowhere near at the moment, could have been a class 710 doing platform gauging. Or could have been nothing of the sort.

 

[Taunton]

Whilst the block via Hampstead Heath overan by 6 months.

Do I remember multiple blocks, one for Eurostar units and one for containers through Hampstead tunnel ? There was probably a lot of upset for the 25Kv installation as well.

One of the most surprising things on the NLL now, at least the eastern end, really a new route since the 1980s, is the traffic level. Now very frequent 5-cars, but I never seem to get a seat, midday or weekends. Way more than the traffic on the East London line it seems, which has always had room to spare.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Do I remember multiple blocks, one for Eurostar units and one for containers through Hampstead tunnel ? There was probably a lot of upset for the 25Kv installation as well.

One of the most surprising things on the NLL now, at least the eastern end, really a new route since the 1980s, is the traffic level. Now very frequent 5-cars, but I never seem to get a seat, midday or weekends. Way more than the traffic on the East London line it seems, which has always had room to spare.

The route , and the areas served are vastly different now , compared to the late 1980's and early 1990's. Revival started with a very modest 4 tph between Stratford and Richmond (partly done by reducing the traffic desert to North Woolwich to 2 tph in the peak , then by further incremental improvements when substantial extra funding was put in under LOROL. To be fair , the vision of the then GLC in a bargain basement 3d rail electrification and the beefing up of stations Dalston Kingsland to Stratford Low Level - after Broad Street went - was a very wise move.