WCML unreliability between Warrington & Carlisle

[a22book]

Hi Forum,

I have noticed over the last few months that the WCML between WBQ and Carlisle is very unreliable. Looking at raildar this also seems to be the case. I was wondering if any members know why trains seem to be running late more often or maybe I'm just unlucky. Saying that the delay repay certainly softens the pain.

Many thanks

 

[northern156]

Most of the times I have seen, it is signalling problems that causes the disruption mainly?

 

[Bob Ames]

I have noticed over the last few months that the WCML between WBQ and Carlisle is very unreliable.

Yep, I've also noticed the route go to pot since June. Delays have been caused by everything from suicides to errant freight sets. I've heard one member of staff say, "It's just silly season right now." Ummmm, OK...

 

[rebmcr]

Well the past week or so it's been shut for engineering at Wigan.

 

[a22book]

Well the past week or so it's been shut for engineering at Wigan.

I'm not including the week long engineering work, which in my opinion was a great way to do the work rather than suffer months of weekend / bank holiday closures.

Trains north seem to arrive from london / birmingham on time at WBQ and south from glasgow / Edinburgh to Carlisile on time but inbetween there tends to be up to 12 minutes of delay, which when you have a 6 minutes connection time turns in to a 60 minute delay.

 

[burns20]

The 13-14 minutes between Lancaster and Preston is unrealistic and takes around 18-20 as no time is given for loading/unloading at nearly every station between Lancaster and Bank Quay.

Very annoying at Bank Quay with a 6 minute connection for Chester and the North Wales coast.

 

[AndyPJG]

The 13-14 minutes between Lancaster and Preston is unrealistic and takes around 18-20 as no time is given for loading/unloading at nearly every station between Lancaster and Bank Quay.

So what stations are between Lancaster and Preston to affect the 13-14 minutes between them?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So what stations are between Lancaster and Preston to affect the 13-14 minutes between them?

I think that actual statement was "stations between Lancaster and Warrington Bank Quay...not Preston"

 

[The Planner]

I am slightly confused by that too, Lancaster to Bank Quay is the best part of 40 minutes. If Lancaster to Preston is taking 18-20 minutes I have no doubt Virgin are kicking off about it. Just looking now, 1M09 departed Lancaster 1 late and was early arriving at Preston.

 

[AndyPJG]

I think that actual statement was "stations between Lancaster and Warrington Bank Quay...not Preston"

As I read the post. it implied that the running time between Lancaster and Preston was extended on that section by station stops, hence my confusion.

All the stops (Leyland, Euxton, Wigan NW) are between Preston and WBQ?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

From experience, Lancaster-Preston and vice versa is doable in 13-14 minutes, the real problem for me is the dwell times. So, so often the 90 seconds or however long allocated is always overrun. It doesn't help at stations like Warrington BQ northbound on a 390 where Standard carriages stop out on the long, windswept, narrow platform extensions to the north, so everyone waits under the canopy or waiting rooms in the centre of the platform until it arrives. I know Lancaster are quite active in shouting down the platforms 'Standard at the rear, please move down the platform', but I've never seen it anywhere else, and I get the impression Virgin's platform zones / where to stand notices are hardly ever noticed. If they had a uniform (or close enough to) fleet they could do what EC do and have huge stands on the platforms saying 'Stand here for Coach B on Virgin Trains services', that might be useful. Don't even get me started on when trains are in reverse formation and it takes everyone by a complete surprise - surely if it's heading south on say Glasgow-Euston there are ways to alert station staff down the line before it pulls in to ensure First and Standard pax change ends?

 

[Aldaniti]

Putting a xx24 75mph DMU four minutes in front of a xx28 125mph Voyager at Wigan doesn't help. I can't remember a time I've departed Wigan on time on the Voyager to Birmingham. At the moment, not one has left Wigan on time today!

 

[The Planner]

I don't see why that doesn't work. There is no reason why the Liverpool cannot get to Springs Branch and over before the Voyager departs 4 minutes later. The Liverpools are losing time at the mo by the looks of it because of the residual TSRs.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The 13-14 minutes between Lancaster and Preston is unrealistic and takes around 18-20 as no time is given for loading/unloading at nearly every station between Lancaster and Bank Quay.

Very annoying at Bank Quay with a 6 minute connection for Chester and the North Wales coast.

Today while travelling northbound I watched a typical scene unfold at Warrington BQ.
ATW departs P1 on-time at xx26 towards Chester.
Just as a VT 390 (due xx20) from Glasgow runs into P2.
The trains were only about 100 yards apart.
Passengers expecting a good connection faced a 59-minute wait.

I checked the timetable and WBQ has no specific interchange time, so 5 minutes it is. The actual cross-platform transfer here takes about 30 seconds.
The ATW web site offers the connection (0737 ex GLC, CTR arr 1053).
So why do the train/platform/TOC staff not care?

 

[Aldaniti]

I don't see why that doesn't work. There is no reason why the Liverpool cannot get to Springs Branch and over before the Voyager departs 4 minutes later. The Liverpools are losing time at the mo by the looks of it because of the residual TSRs.

Its been happening since the 'new' Virgin timetable was introduced a few years ago so the recent TSR's will only have made things worse. Given the age of the stock used for the Liverpool's, the fact that they originate from Blackpool and have to negotiate a major station at Preston, notwithstanding the fact that a freight can often be held on the up slow at Balshaw Lane, delays were inevitable. Theory is great but reality is what passengers experience.

 

[route:oxford]

Today while travelling northbound I watched a typical scene unfold at Warrington BQ.
ATW departs P1 on-time at xx26 towards Chester.
Just as a VT 390 (due xx20) from Glasgow runs into P2.
The trains were only about 100 yards apart.
Passengers expecting a good connection faced a 59-minute wait.

I checked the timetable and WBQ has no specific interchange time, so 5 minutes it is. The actual cross-platform transfer here takes about 30 seconds.
The ATW web site offers the connection (0737 ex GLC, CTR arr 1053).
So why do the train/platform/TOC staff not care?

That's fantastic for the people who plan ahead...

Near guaranteed refund every time.

 

[Helvellyn]

Today while travelling northbound I watched a typical scene unfold at Warrington BQ.
ATW departs P1 on-time at xx26 towards Chester.
Just as a VT 390 (due xx20) from Glasgow runs into P2.
The trains were only about 100 yards apart.
Passengers expecting a good connection faced a 59-minute wait.

The key part here is that the xx26 departed on-time. I appreciate some people wanting a connection were inconvenienced, but more people on that ATW service could have been inconvenienced by a late departure from WBQ, and missed their own connections further along the journey. In addition, if the ATW train left lat, then that could delay other services on its journey because it could miss its booked pathway.

The railway is an incredibly complicated jigsaw, and delays can quickly mount up and spread when trains get out of kilter. Overall it is usually better to keep as many trains running on time as possible.

 

[Welshman]

Today while travelling northbound I watched a typical scene unfold at Warrington BQ.
ATW departs P1 on-time at xx26 towards Chester.
Just as a VT 390 (due xx20) from Glasgow runs into P2.
The trains were only about 100 yards apart.
Passengers expecting a good connection faced a 59-minute wait.

It would be even more annoying to passengers facing an enforced 59-minute wait if they knew the VT 390 from which they'd just alighted would overtake and be at Acton Grange Junction before the ATW they'd just missed, as that would be trundling round the low level lines to keep the main line clear for the 390!

I can't see any reason when there are only a few minutes involved, that the ATW could not be held in platform 1, then allowed out straight after the Virgin 390, and follow it on the up fast to Acton Grange.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The key part here is that the xx26 departed on-time. I appreciate some people wanting a connection were inconvenienced, but more people on that ATW service could have been inconvenienced by a late departure from WBQ, and missed their own connections further along the journey. In addition, if the ATW train left lat, then that could delay other services on its journey because it could miss its booked pathway.

The railway is an incredibly complicated jigsaw, and delays can quickly mount up and spread when trains get out of kilter. Overall it is usually better to keep as many trains running on time as possible.

That's a very good point about further critical connections. But, during the day-time, when the x26 from Warrington BQ is extended to Llandudno, there are none!
Passengers for the Wirral have a 15-minute service from Chester, and passengers for Wrexham and stations from Llandudno Junction to Holyhead a 30-minute connection at Chester/Llandudno Junction, which would not be jeopardised anyway.

 

[kieron]

The key part here is that the xx26 departed on-time. I appreciate some people wanting a connection were inconvenienced, but more people on that ATW service could have been inconvenienced by a late departure from WBQ, and missed their own connections further along the journey.

If you're talking about a rail connection, that particular train had none before it reached Chester. When it got to Chester, the shortest connection (ignoring the Crewe one) is a 7 minute one for a Liverpool train.

In addition, if the ATW train left lat, then that could delay other services on its journey because it could miss its booked pathway.

It could delay the Crewe service if it was too late, as there's only a two minute gap between them, but that wouldn't be the end of the world as Crewe has a 10 minute minimum connection, and the first train beyond that was a Manchester train 13 minutes after the Crewe one is scheduled to arrive.

The railway is an incredibly complicated jigsaw, and delays can quickly mount up and spread when trains get out of kilter. Overall it is usually better to keep as many trains running on time as possible.

Perhaps so, but the whole thing being complicated doesn't stop you looking at a few of the pieces. I would suggest that they could have held the Chester train without difficulty, but chose not to as there aren't that many passengers for intermediate stations, and anyone going to Chester could catch the next train from Crewe and get there only 20 minutes late, without missing any connections apart from a Liverpool train and the WAG Express.

From what I can see, the only people who would be delayed by more than half an hour by this are those going from the WCML to Runcorn East, Frodsham and Helsby. I'm sure the staff in Warrington could sort them out with something.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

From what I can see, the only people who would be delayed by more than half an hour by this are those going from the WCML to Runcorn East, Frodsham and Helsby. I'm sure the staff in Warrington could sort them out with something.

No, the xx20 VT is Euston only so you would have to get the following Birmingham Voyager to Crewe.
Either way you lose an hour to anywhere.
I had never thought of claiming delay-repay for such an event.
If it hits VT/ATW in the pocket maybe they will take connections more seriously.

 

[a22book]

No, the xx20 VT is Euston only so you would have to get the following Birmingham Voyager to Crewe.
Either way you lose an hour to anywhere.
I had never thought of claiming delay-repay for such an event.
If it hits VT/ATW in the pocket maybe they will take connections more seriously.

I Always claim and feel thats my right.

I live in frodsham and the journey to carlisle takes about 2 hours by car and the same by train. The petrol costs about 35 pounds and the train fare for a family of 3 on a railcard is about 80 pounds. I much prefer to travel by train but if I knew the journey would be 3 hours, I would always drive.

 

[Lockwood]

Passengers expecting a good connection faced a 59-minute wait.

I'm surprised noone's said "They should be prepared for that and plan accordingly" yet :P

 

[Beveridges]

Putting a xx24 75mph DMU four minutes in front of a xx28 125mph Voyager at Wigan doesn't help. I can't remember a time I've departed Wigan on time on the Voyager to Birmingham. At the moment, not one has left Wigan on time today!

Whats worse, that old Northern DMU probably only averages at 30mph when you count in the frequent stopping and starting, and the fact that they are quite sluggish.

 

[Class83]

Whats worse, that old Northern DMU probably only averages at 30mph when you count in the frequent stopping and starting, and the fact that they are quite sluggish.

It would make more sense to time that train to leave after the voyager to allow connections to Liverpool.