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Were brake vans ever used in passenger trains?
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With respect, I think your question doesn't say it all, I think you need to clarify exactly what you mean by "brake van" versus "brake coach" or "full brake". I can't answer your question as it stands because I don't understand what you're asking, which may be my failing I accept.
Traditional mixed trains required a goods brake (assuming that's what you mean) but it would have been unusual for the passenger coach(es) not to include a brake - most likely on those few lines where all trains ran mixed, but I can't recall seeing pictures or reports to prove it. I expect to be proved wrong
Parcels, milk and similar "coaching stock" trains with passenger accommodation also tended to have a brake coach - I suppose it was the simplest way of guaranteeing the guard had somewhere!
hexagon789
Veteran Member
I presume they mean a goods brake van in place of a carriage with guard's van and handbrake - such as a BG or BSK etc.
I can't think of any where a good brake was used in place of a passenger brake vehicle or full brake but the Mallaig/Fort William mixed trains were usually booked Mk1 BFK-TSO for the passenger accommodation, then the goods vehicles and a goods brake van on rear.
Yes, thats right, thank you.
Ahh that's interesting, is that because the trains were split at some point subsesquently?
Gloster
Established Member
Many branch trains ran as mixed trains and in the days when not all goods wagons had automatic brakes this meant that there had to be a brake-van at the rear: this would be a goods brake. As the coaching stock in the mixed was the normal set for the branch it would contain a passenger coach with a brake compartment for when it was running as a passenger train. I have read of odd occasions where a temporary problem meant that a goods brake had to be attached to the rear of a coach or coaches that did not contain a brake compartment. However, I very much doubt if such a working would ever be planned and appear in the Carriage Working Diagrams, even for some of the odd schools and market workings that used to appear, although it is not impossible.
If the goods wagons were vacuum braked they could be attached to the rear of a passenger train without problems, as used to happen with the tanks to and from Mallaig and china clay wagons on the morning Barnstaple-Exeter. If there were several wagons at the rear of the train, it was possible (at one time) for them to be only piped ones, although they could not be at the rear.
If the goods wagons were vacuum braked they could be attached to the rear of a passenger train without problems, as used to happen with the tanks to and from Mallaig and china clay wagons on the morning Barnstaple-Exeter. If there were several wagons at the rear of the train, it was possible (at one time) for them to be only piped ones, although they could not be at the rear.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
I think simply because the regs required it in the 1960s/1970s. In later years, the oil tankers ran in the Mallaig mixed without a good brake van.
The oil tankers had AFI (accelerated freight inshot) vacuum brakes, I'm not sure what the other traffic that existed earlier used, but the fish vans would almost certainly have been fitted as such vehicles were usually XP rated and able to be run in normal passenger trains (unless the timings didn't allow fir it) and were permitted 75mph from memory. As the entire Scottish Region was 75mph max until the early 1970s that wouldn't have been a problem though.
'Titfield Thunderbolt' had saloon car (ex Upwell Tramway) and GWR brakevan. Quite possible lines like Tollesbury, Thaxted, Seahouses etc ran like that in the past?
One reason for ensuring there was a passenger brake would be that if there was no goods traffic the goods brake could be left behind (depending on other workings).
One unusual working of passenger stock that conveyed a freight brake (on the occasion I travelled on it) was the weekly working of LMR stock to and from Wolverton works - presumably there was no guarantee the continuous brake would be working.
I don't remember the same applying to the WR equivalent (which I also travelled on).
Mixed trains definitely needed a brake van on the back where the goods vehicles, as most of their era, did not have continuous brakes, The Mallaig oil tankers described above, and a few others, were unusual in their era for actually having vacuum brakes, and they could make do without one behind. Milk tankers similar. But that was not the norm. If there were braked goods vehicles there was still a limit on how many there could be behind the guards' position.
The Wirral electric units that were taken to Horwich Works for heavy overhaul used to have a brake van on the back because they had air brakes whereas the steam, and early diesel, locos that hauled them were vacuum brake only, so they ran unbraked.
For those unaware, both wagons and brake vans were normally painted different colours dependent on brake. Unbraked ones, long the majority, were grey; vacuum braked ones were brown.
The Wirral electric units that were taken to Horwich Works for heavy overhaul used to have a brake van on the back because they had air brakes whereas the steam, and early diesel, locos that hauled them were vacuum brake only, so they ran unbraked.
For those unaware, both wagons and brake vans were normally painted different colours dependent on brake. Unbraked ones, long the majority, were grey; vacuum braked ones were brown.
In the world of the first generation of light railways, I wonder if the more widespread use of brake vans across all types of train was more commonplace. How the Col Stephens empire deployed brake vans might be interesting. And what about lines like the Bishops Castle? On the Welsh narrow gauge weren't 4 wheel brake vans quite normal on passenger trains on some lines - Talyllyn for instance?
In the 1950s, weren't there some one-off brake van tours over lines like the Cromford and High Peak? Lots of passengers, but no coaches - only brake vans!
In the 1950s, weren't there some one-off brake van tours over lines like the Cromford and High Peak? Lots of passengers, but no coaches - only brake vans!
Certainly many light railways had all trains timetabled as mixed.
https://www.lner.info/co/GER/wisbech/stock.php
This article (I was doing a photo search) says that the W and U cars had an emergency handbrake, so they might have run with a goods brake only. They went to the Kelvedon and Tollesbury later in their life, but all the photos I can find show one paired with a (relatively) conventional Brake 3rd.
Yes, but the Talyllyn's was always a "passenger" brake to match the 4wh coaches. As well as its ticket window, didn't it have a bench which the locals sometimes used (ref. in Rolt, Railway Adventure)?
Gloster
Established Member
I don’t think it was necessary. The coaches were often non-corridor, so even if the guard was in the van he couldn’t get to the passengers. Employing an extra member of staff would only worsen the economics of what was often a pretty shoestring operation. Matters such as dealing with parcels, selling and collecting tickets, loading and unloading prams, etc, would be muddled through. Mixed trains often had fairly relaxed timetables and were seen as being of only local importance.
matchmaker
Established Member
<pedant> bauxite
Cheshire Scot
Established Member
Can you spread any light on when in the 70s the regs. ceased to require it?
The only photo I have seen of a brake van in Mallaig post steam era is dated 1971 but as the brake van is in the siding (with several oil tanks and at least one van) it is not clear whether it had arrived on the mixed or on a freight - the mixed would only have come into being once regular freights to Mallaig ceased and certainly from the mid 70s onwards I saw the mixed many times but never with a brake van.
As you note the fish traffic was often worked on passenger trains, but also when volumes required it, on a 'fish special'.
From time to time the mixed would also convey vanfits and very occasionally hyfits - I recall one occasion when there was a lengthy mix of these types in connection with an MOD exercise on the Islands.
In the late 60s and early 70s vanfits (XP) conveying NCL sundries traffic were booked to be conveyed on the morning passenger train from Fort William to Mallaig (having arrived in Fort William on an overnight freight train) but these are not shown in the Passenger Marshalling books as coming back on a passenger train which might imply they returned on a freight train - NCL later moved to road deliveries from Fort William for Mallaig line traffic.
The 1973/74 Marshalling Book is the first year in which the afternoon FW to Mallaig and evening return are described as 'Mixed Train', perhaps the freight continued to run until 72/73 - maybe someone has a WTT from that year.
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Many were vacuum piped (TOPS designation CAP) rather than vacuum braked - assuming all other vehicles were VB fitted (or piped if not among the rear vehicles and spaced according to the regs., and with the requisite brake force for the train as a whole) the train could still run fully fitted as the guard riding in the 'piped' BV had a vacuum brake valve to alert the driver as well as a handbrake.
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Gloster
Established Member
Brake vans were required on the rear of goods trains until 1968, after which the guard could travel in the rear cab of the loco if the train was fully fitted. Even before that XP rated goods vehicles (always braked and with a lamp iron) could travel at the rear of the train. I think there were limits on the number of XP vehicles allowed at the rear, but many fish vans were passenger-rated and the only restrictions with them were speed and weight limits.
It may be that unbraked vehicles were banned on the Mallaig line. I believe that the Kyle line was the first BR line to have such a restriction imposed (in the early 1970s, I think) and it would be logical for the Mallaig one to be added.
The non-appearance of the sundries vanfit in a Mallaig-Fort William train could just be that only on the outward journey was it required to be in a particular train. For the return it could simply be added to any working as convenient: it was only an empty vanfit (and there were plenty of them about).
It may be that unbraked vehicles were banned on the Mallaig line. I believe that the Kyle line was the first BR line to have such a restriction imposed (in the early 1970s, I think) and it would be logical for the Mallaig one to be added.
The non-appearance of the sundries vanfit in a Mallaig-Fort William train could just be that only on the outward journey was it required to be in a particular train. For the return it could simply be added to any working as convenient: it was only an empty vanfit (and there were plenty of them about).
There would need to be a guard at the back if there were any unfitted wagons in the consist. The brake van would be needed if a coupling broke and the tail started running away in the wrong direction.
Mixed trains would be formed of passenger coaches, then the wagons, and finally a brake van. If there were no wagons on offer in one direction there would be the strange combination of the coaches with just the brake van on the back. If nothing on offer both ways the guard would persuade the loco crew to park it in a siding, and ride in the brake compartment of a coach, far better riding and steam heated instead of having to tend a stove.
Comparable to the Mallaig oil tankers, the West Country made extensive use of bulk milk tankers, many on 6 wheels, and surprisingly heavy when loaded. These would be added to the rear of local passenger trains in the same way, behind the coaches, commonly just a couple. When dmus took such services over this continued in a few places, certainly the Saltash to Plymouth local, which was a bit of a favourite for photographers crossing Saltash bridge. Because of the tail load such trains were formed of two single power cars. In previous steam days this service was a push-pull, often formed with two coaches, one either side of the 64xx Pannier tank, giving the strange combination of coach, loco, coach, two milk tanks. Bulk milk was regarded as "passenger rated" traffic commercially, and thus such trains did not have to be designated as Mixed.
Comparable to the Mallaig oil tankers, the West Country made extensive use of bulk milk tankers, many on 6 wheels, and surprisingly heavy when loaded. These would be added to the rear of local passenger trains in the same way, behind the coaches, commonly just a couple. When dmus took such services over this continued in a few places, certainly the Saltash to Plymouth local, which was a bit of a favourite for photographers crossing Saltash bridge. Because of the tail load such trains were formed of two single power cars. In previous steam days this service was a push-pull, often formed with two coaches, one either side of the 64xx Pannier tank, giving the strange combination of coach, loco, coach, two milk tanks. Bulk milk was regarded as "passenger rated" traffic commercially, and thus such trains did not have to be designated as Mixed.
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IIRC, X.P. designated 4 wheeled non-passenger vehicles and braked freight stock which could be run as part of a passenger train. According to the 1960 General Appendix, X.P. vehicles needed oil axle boxes,automatic brakes or through pipes, screw couplings and long buffers and have a minimum tare weight of 6 tons. There seem to be a number of additional factors which had to be considered, such as length of wheelbase, piping for steam heat etc, which would have to be considered when marshalling the consist and which would restrict the maximum speed of the train. Others will know much more.
There were a few cases where a "passenger" train consisted only of a goods brake van. Usually these were at odd hours for the families of railways staff or for "workmen". There was one such working between Weymouth and Dorchester.
On the Highland Railway, passengers could be carried in the brake van of a goods train, when there was no scheduled passenger service. Passengers wishing to do this were required to buy a first class ticket AND sign an indemnity form!
On the Highland Railway, passengers could be carried in the brake van of a goods train, when there was no scheduled passenger service. Passengers wishing to do this were required to buy a first class ticket AND sign an indemnity form!
Some railtours were simply formed of a string of brake vans. Several pictures can be seen on the Cornwall Railway Society website.
1965 to 68 Steam railtours in Cornwall & Devon
Steam Railtours in Cornwall & Devon Pre 1968
www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk
Which may explain why my family - my parents, elder brother (aged 9) and I (6) - travelled from Georgemas Jn to Thurso in a 26-hauled goods brake van around 1963!
Though I doubt we bought any First Class tickets! (More of a case of the local staff helping a marooned railway family get to their destination without hours of waiting.)
To add a bit more fun I've seen photos of the Hemyock trains with the passenger brake at either end of the milk tankers... although milk tanks were effectively passenger stock so it didn't matter operationally other than making life interesting working out where to stop at the halts(!).
Perfectly possible, as milk tankers were vacuum braked and IIRC steam heated, and the passenger coach was the only brake accommodation on the branch AFAIK.
SR practice would be to have the passenger coaches next the engine (as with a mixed train) and some sort of full brake (Van B or similar) at the rear.
The Hemyock train (which I never managed a ride in) was a challenge to put together, especially on the Up journey from Hemyock to the junction as there were milk tankers to be picked up along the way, for which it was convenient for the loco to shunt them while the coach remained at one of the platforms. You certainly find photos of the train with the solitary coach at either front or back. The passenger timetable, with just a few oddball services, didn't reflect the substantial use the line made of milk tankers, which occupied the 14xx pretty much all day and made all trains mixed. I think there were two full length milk trains left the Junction for London each day, and a range of services to and fro along the branch to bring the tankers down. The creameries along the way were substantial industrial businesses. After the end of steam passenger services (1963 I think) it still occupied a Class 03 diesel all day.
Towards the end the onetime Barry Railway wooden-bodied coach had finally become not fit for purpose, and a couple of I believe onetime LNER brake coaches, with very large brake compartments taking up half the length, were obtained. Because of the nature of the milk tanker traffic, push-pull operation was not possible, which just added to all the shunting needed. Despite quite large villages along the way, the valley never seemed to have a bus service, so the loss of the passenger train must have been felt - there was a coach hirer in Hemyock who used to turn up in Taunton on market days only (unusually, Saturdays) with dilapadated old Bedford coaches. All the photos I have seen of diesels on the branch never had a brake van at all - tankers only.
Towards the end the onetime Barry Railway wooden-bodied coach had finally become not fit for purpose, and a couple of I believe onetime LNER brake coaches, with very large brake compartments taking up half the length, were obtained. Because of the nature of the milk tanker traffic, push-pull operation was not possible, which just added to all the shunting needed. Despite quite large villages along the way, the valley never seemed to have a bus service, so the loss of the passenger train must have been felt - there was a coach hirer in Hemyock who used to turn up in Taunton on market days only (unusually, Saturdays) with dilapadated old Bedford coaches. All the photos I have seen of diesels on the branch never had a brake van at all - tankers only.
My male line comes from the Culm valley. My Gt Gt Grandad (Same surname) lived near the level crossing in Culmstock. And his father was 'removed' from Hemyock under the provisions of the then poor law. Nice to hear about the railway in my ancestral home. Thanks
You're very welcome. There's a full length illustrated article (like for many West Country branches) here on the Cornwall Railway Society website, which hopefully doesn't contradict too much of what I wrote ...
Thankyou so much for thatYou're very welcome. There's a full length illustrated article (like for many West Country branches) here on the Cornwall Railway Society website, which hopefully doesn't contradict too much of what I wrote ...
The road from the level crossing going away from the camera is calls The Strand, where Gt Gt Grandad lived Must have been a miserable place to live then - they have a flood defence from the river now.
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