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What are the critea for clipping tickets?

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Tracky

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Proper date stamps, the ones that create a nice inky impression on the ticket are very expensive. Some passengers do try to rub the stamp off to reuse their open tickets but if you squeeze good and hard the mark will still be visible. The company who produce them, Zifa, also make stampers with a small hole punch at the end of the date.

Both types are eye wateringly expensive though so some TOC's no longer issue them to guards. On the subject of cost though, I argue that the cost of reuse and refund fraud is well beyond what most TOC's believe or admit to.

In terms of re-use or application for a refund, a scrawl does not prove a ticket has been used. A passenger could claim that his child got hold of it and a biro and who would I be to argue. If the guard does not have stampers an identifiable hole punch could be an idea. If a pen is the only option, then to invalidate a ticket completley I would say Date, Headcode and maybe something to identify the member of staff.

If the ticket is used to pass through a barrier at the start or middle of a journey it will of course be recorded on the ticket.

As a final point, time can be pressing and if a guard is rushing with revenue duties Advance tickets are not normally refundable and refunds on other tickets normally incur an admin fee. Passengers may try and reuse day tickets on local routes but it is unlikely. In all cases open tickets and expensive tickets are the ones to mark and mark clearly!
 
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Bungle73

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I've never had any issues using a biroed ticket on a subsequent train.
 

yorkie

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.. it left the passenger ( i.e. consumer) in a difficult legal position - on a journey where one changed trains, or even guards, how could one prove that one had not "used the ticket beforehand"....
There is no requirement to "prove" that; the opposite would need to be proved. The customer could be asked for information about the previous train(s) they caught. If the guard was concerned the ticket was picked up off the floor, then questions could be asked about the method of payment and place of purchase.

If the ticket is the outward portion of an Anytime return being used on a subsequent day after the first day of validity, I'd expect the guard would ask to see the unused return portion too.
 

158801

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Sadly there is no foolproof way to endorse a ticket.

The return half of a ticket from E to A (vai D, C & B) can be valid for up to 1 month

A hole punch means that it has been checked - but where - E, D or B

A ticket date stamped and headcode stamped (1S9915122011) means it has been used on 1S99 on 15 Dec - but from where - E, D or B

I suppose the best way is to have a stamper that endorses - "chkd after B" or "chkd after D". Then when there are multiple staff changeovers a new guard would put an extra stamp on.

I have seen stamps with hearts, diamonds, teddy bears, apples, tear drops, moon crescent and a helicopter !
 

DaveNewcastle

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Sadly there is no foolproof way to endorse a ticket.
. . . .
I agree.

I understand that considerable effort is currently being applied to consider electronic / smart-card alternatives, which will in due course be evaluated very carefully. I'm sure those working towards such solutions will apply the best possible expertise to the challenge. But the fact remains, as you have so succinctly stated : nothing is absolutely reliable under all conditions.

I expect that there will be radical changes over the next decade or so, and many of the current weakesses which have the highest cost to the industry will be addressed robustly (while some of the arcane questions about stamping an ALR may be sidelined), but we can be sure of one thing - whatever lies ahead will come with its own set of failures, challenges and unresolvable queries.

. . . . and a helicopter !
Now that is something I have never encountered!
 

yorkie

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A ticket date stamped and headcode stamped (1S9915122011) means it has been used on 1S99 on 15 Dec - but from where - E, D or B
In theory, but the last ticket I had that was stamped with a headcode was stamped with the incorrect headcode, as presumably the guard had not changed it from a previous journey. Not that the headcode is particularly helpful anyway, and it was an Advance ticket.
 

DaveNewcastle

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In theory, but . . . . .
As he said, quite correctly in my opinion :
Sadly there is no foolproof way to endorse a ticket.

(Anyway, I find that the smudging of ink that occasionaly resembles numerals and letters, are probably the least useful of ticket validation methods. Unless they actually emboss an imprint, as some do (even onto a second card such as a seat reservation beneath it). BTW, these are very exceptional.)
 

yorkie

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Oh, I quite agree with the point 158801 was making. :) I was just going beyond that by saying that in addition to not knowing where the ticket was checked, you can't even be sure the headcode is correct so can't actually even determine that it has been used on 1S99.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Yes, the inked stampers are unreliable too.
Wrong headcode, wrong day, even the wrong year! (and I did have a ticket stamped with the wrong year once!).

[banks use similar date-stamps on their cashiers' desks, and they too can be set to the wrong date - but lets not start discussing banks, eh?].
 

John @ home

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A ticket date stamped and headcode stamped (1S9915122011) means it has been used on 1S99 on 15 Dec - but from where - E, D or B

I suppose the best way is to have a stamper that endorses - "chkd after B" or "chkd after D".
Good idea. If I may be allowed to suggest a minor improvement, the year may be dispensed with because sufficient information is already printed on the ticket. Instead, add the 3-digit code for the next station at which the train is scheduled to stop. So 1D271412GRA would indicate a ticket has been checked on the 1833 Kings X - Bradford on 14 December between Stevenage and Grantham.
 

dvboy

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I've had a ticket stamped with the wrong year too.

It's irrelevant what's stamped anyway as the paper/ink combination used most times means it smudges the moment it touches something else (whether another ticket or inside of wallet or pocket etc).
 

bb21

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The year is irrelevant as no ticket is valid for longer than a year.

With the exception of Off-Shore Returns, I'm not aware of any National Rail ticket valid for longer than a month either, so in theory the month figure can also be disposed of, eg. the return portion of an Off-Peak Return valid from 27th May stamped 26th is not going to mean 26th May or 26th July, is it, provided that it has been set correctly?
 

158801

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Not sure what an Off Shore return is - but tickets to London International are valid for 2 months
 

island

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Irish Rail stampers are supposed to be set with the station code (which is numerical), although most aren't.

I am not sure how easy it is to change the Zifa stampers, but it could be time-consuming on a train with a lot of stops.
 

trentside

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I believe a Hull based Northern guard has a collection of stampers, could it have been him? So far, I've seen trains, trees and rabbits amongst others that have faded in my memory.

I was on a train from Lincoln to Sheffield, so would presume it was a Sheffield based guard.
 

Nym

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I always got some clipping variaty on Bridlington to Hull (Jumping ship at Cottingham) cake, cars etc, and the floor was always littered with the clippings... Endless entertainment for holidaymakers.
 

clagmonster

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In terms of re-use or application for a refund, a scrawl does not prove a ticket has been used. A passenger could claim that his child got hold of it and a biro and who would I be to argue.
In that case Condition 23 applies:
"23. If a ticket is damaged or altered
If a ticket has been damaged or has been tampered with or altered in any way, it is not
valid for travel. However, if you return it to the Train Company or travel agent which sold
it to you, they will arrange for a replacement ticket to be issued unless it has reason to
suspect that the ticket has, or will be, used for fraudulent or improper purposes. You may
have to pay a reasonable administrative charge (not exceeding £10) for the replacement."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf
The scrawl is clearly an alteration on the ticket. Therefore, I would say in these conditions ching them up as if no ticket were held and advise them to go to the company from which they purchased a ticket for a refund. Of course, if a small child is present discretion can be shown.
 

BestWestern

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I always got some clipping variaty on Bridlington to Hull (Jumping ship at Cottingham) cake, cars etc, and the floor was always littered with the clippings... Endless entertainment for holidaymakers.

This is one of the reasons for ink stampers!
 
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