What are the official minimum connection times, New St to Moor St/Snow Hill?

[pt_mad]

Searched the forums and have googled it too. Couldn't find it anywhere.

Is there an official minimum connection time when making valid connections between:

1. Birmingham New Street walking to Birmingham Moor Street (and vice versa)
2. Birmingham New Street walking to Birmingham Snow Hill (and vice versa)

Surely there must be an official time otherwise presumably people without prior experience could attempt it for connection in ten minutes time and end up missing it?

 

[RMcE]

I think it would work in the same way as transfering between London terminals by taking the minimum connection time at New Street (12 minutes) the link time to Moor Street or Snow Hill (8/10 minutes respectively) and the minimum connection time at those stations (5 minutes). This would give a minimum of 20 minutes to Moor Street or 22 minutes to Snow Hill
Times available on www.brtimes.com not sure where to find them from an official source.

 

[jonesy3001]

I had half an hour once between connections from new st to moor lane has i just missed the train that was going to Worcester from new street due to the late running of the virgin train (surprise surprise), but since moor lane is only a 10 min walk from new street, me and my wife decided to walk down and wait for the next train to forgate street and have a coffee while we was waiting.

 

[gordonthemoron]

are any tickets so routed?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

are any tickets so routed?

Plenty of itineraries will suggest that you change between the two. For example, imagine Longbridge to Jewellery Quarter or The Hawthorns. The fastest way may be via Birmingham New Street, and then walk to Snow Hill. Or again somewhere like Longbridge or King's Norton to Dorridge - change at Moor Street.

 

[pt_mad]

I think it would work in the same way as transfering between London terminals by taking the minimum connection time at New Street (12 minutes) the link time to Moor Street or Snow Hill (8/10 minutes respectively) and the minimum connection time at those stations (5 minutes). This would give a minimum of 20 minutes to Moor Street or 22 minutes to Snow Hill
Times available on www.brtimes.com not sure where to find them from an official source.

Yeah looked on www.brtimes.com
It suggests
8 mins connection between Birmingham New St to Moor St
10 mins connection between Birmingham New St to Snow Hill

Seems a bit short. Are we supposed to add this onto the connection time at Moor St or Snow Hill respectively? If walking towards them for departures I mean.

And does the New St connection time of 12 mins come into it? Or is that only if you were going TOWARDS New St you'd have to add on the New St connection time to find your platform? Its not clear.

Its quite confusing because similarly if you look at connection times between Wigan Wallgate and Wigan North Western it says 1 minute! You;d never walk it and look your next platform up in that time.

 

[OverSpeed]

Far as i recall, in regards to going to and from New street and Snow Hill, the WM Metro route between Grand central (new st.) and St.Chads (Snow Hill) Only takes 5 minutes Via tram is meant to be quickest way of travelling, and they go every 6 minutes, where as walking between those 2 stations, can take between 6-12 minutes walking, depending how quick you are, and how busy the streets are!

 

[Kite159]

Far as i recall, in regards to going to and from New street and Snow Hill, the WM Metro route between Grand central (new st.) and St.Chads (Snow Hill) Only takes 5 minutes Via tram is meant to be quickest way of travelling, and they go every 6 minutes, where as walking between those 2 stations, can take between 6-12 minutes walking, depending how quick you are, and how busy the streets are!

But the tram would cost an extra £1, and is no good on days when the Livery Street entrance to Snow Hill is closed as it involves a walk back towards Bull Street to access Snow Hill from the main entrance.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Far as i recall, in regards to going to and from New street and Snow Hill, the WM Metro route between Grand central (new st.) and St.Chads (Snow Hill) Only takes 5 minutes Via tram is meant to be quickest way of travelling, and they go every 6 minutes, where as walking between those 2 stations, can take between 6-12 minutes walking, depending how quick you are, and how busy the streets are!

If doing that then changing at Jewellery Quarter off a tram would be better going Stourbridge bound.

Alternatively getting one of the four Galton Bridge ex New Street rail services and changing there for Stourbridge bound services would be better

 

[Flying Snail]

Yeah looked on www.brtimes.com
It suggests
8 mins connection between Birmingham New St to Moor St
10 mins connection between Birmingham New St to Snow Hill

Seems a bit short. Are we supposed to add this onto the connection time at Moor St or Snow Hill respectively? If walking towards them for departures I mean.

And does the New St connection time of 12 mins come into it? Or is that only if you were going TOWARDS New St you'd have to add on the New St connection time to find your platform? Its not clear.

Its quite confusing because similarly if you look at connection times between Wigan Wallgate and Wigan North Western it says 1 minute! You;d never walk it and look your next platform up in that time.

As the post you quoted clearly said you add the walking time on to the minimum connection times for both stations for the overall minimum valid connection.

 

[Hadders]

Between Birmingham New Street at Moor Street the minimum interchange time is 25 minutes consisting of:
Birmingham New Street Minimum interchange time 12 minutes
Walking time between New Street and Moor Street 8 minutes
Birmingham Moor Street Minimum interchange time 5 minutes

The minimum interchange time between New Street and Snow Hill is 27 minutes as the walking time between New Street and Snow Hill is 10 minutes.

 

[pt_mad]

Between Birmingham New Street at Moor Street the minimum interchange time is 25 minutes consisting of:
Birmingham New Street Minimum interchange time 12 minutes
Walking time between New Street and Moor Street 8 minutes
Birmingham Moor Street Minimum interchange time 5 minutes

The minimum interchange time between New Street and Snow Hill is 27 minutes as the walking time between New Street and Snow Hill is 10 minutes.

Very clear and concise answer.

The only thing I don't quite understand, although I don't doubt it's correct at all, is why we have to add in the connection time at New St (the 12 mins) when surely simply walking out of the station is going to take less time than a connection there would?

In other words 12 minutes is accounted for just to take the escalator and leave through the doors. When in reality that might be needed for looking up the next train and changing platforms but seems a little excessive for just exiting the station?

 

[yorkie]

Very clear and concise answer.

The only thing I don't quite understand, although I don't doubt it's correct at all, is why we have to add in the connection time at New St (the 12 mins) when surely simply walking out of the station is going to take less time than a connection there would?

In other words 12 minutes is accounted for just to take the escalator and leave through the doors. When in reality that might be needed for looking up the next train and changing platforms but seems a little excessive for just exiting the station?

Although the calculation is the sum of both interchange times for each station plus the transfer time, what matters is the overall figure.

I do not understand quite what your point is; you say that the transfer times are too short and you say that the interchange times are too long, but it is unclear if you are saying the overall change time (which is what matters) is too short or too long or if you are proposing some alternative method of calculation?

 

[Flying Snail]

Very clear and concise answer.

The only thing I don't quite understand, although I don't doubt it's correct at all, is why we have to add in the connection time at New St (the 12 mins) when surely simply walking out of the station is going to take less time than a connection there would?

In other words 12 minutes is accounted for just to take the escalator and leave through the doors. When in reality that might be needed for looking up the next train and changing platforms but seems a little excessive for just exiting the station?

Because the purpose of the minimum allowed connection times is not to tell you how quickly you can do it in but to allow everyone (bar those with serious mobility issues) to plan a connection that they should be able to make. That includes those who have never visited the stations/area before, those unaware of how big the crowds can be if you are last off a busy train there and those who are less than familiar with navigating around UK streets.

I have done exiting a train at New Street to platform at Moor Street in less than 10 minutes at a quick walking pace. But then I knew exactly where to be on the arriving train which I was off before the crowd, which direction to go, which exit to use and the road layout to get to Moor St in the shortest time.

The same is mostly true for station connections, 12 minutes is plenty for anyone who knows the place to get from one platform to another in New Steet, the min time should be enough for all but the terminally incapable idiots or those with mobility issues to comfortably manage a change of train.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Because the purpose of the minimum allowed connection times is not to tell you how quickly you can do it in but to allow everyone (bar those with serious mobility issues) to plan a connection that they should be able to make.

The same in London of course. Regular commuters would make mincemeat of the minimum connection times.

If you arrive at one London terminal and depart from another, it can always be worth checking the times independently rather than believe the conservative estimates given by National Rail enquiries.

In Birmingham it's not that far to walk from Moor Street to New Street or vice versa and it's the regular route from Chiltern stations north. To avoid walking, it might make sense to use a Cross Country service to bridge the gap between a Chiltern station and a WCML one. I'd suspect you have to work that out for yourself. If it's the same platform or an adjacent one, connection times can be minimal. There's always the risk, particularly with single platforms of trains arriving in the wrong order.

 

[yorkie]

Journey planners tend to offer non-walking interchanges where possible, and most journey planners will do this even if it results in a higher fare (e.g. the use of CrossCountry rather than Chiltern between Birmingham and Leamington/Banbury).

If anyone wishes to rule out a walk, www.fastjp.com has a 'travel modes' option which enables you to avoid walks.

 

[pt_mad]

Although the calculation is the sum of both interchange times for each station plus the transfer time, what matters is the overall figure.

I do not understand quite what your point is; you say that the transfer times are too short and you say that the interchange times are too long, but it is unclear if you are saying the overall change time (which is what matters) is too short or too long or if you are proposing some alternative method of calculation?

I get that. It's the overall figure that matters. And I didn't know how this was calculated until this thread. After that I was just questioning the method behind the calculation. I was just wondering why they put the 12 minute connection figure from New Street in there when it's probably possible for the bulk of people to exit New St in way less than 12 minutes. I guess it's just the standard calculation.

I did wonder whether it might be that you had to add the transfer time eg. 8 mins to the connection time at Moor St when going to Moor St. And the minimum transfer time 8 mins to the connection time at New St 12 mins if going towards New St. so you had time to find your platform at New St. But this has cleared that up. You add the whole lot together whichever direction.

There's no real reason to question the method other than I was curious.

Likewise is it the same for all minimum connection times when transfer involves walking?
E.g. Euston connection time + 15 minute walk transfer + St Pancras Domestic connection time = total minimum connection time?

 

[iainbhx]

I have done exiting a train at New Street to platform at Moor Street in less than 10 minutes at a quick walking pace. But then I knew exactly where to be on the arriving train which I was off before the crowd, which direction to go, which exit to use and the road layout to get to Moor St in the shortest time.

I do it regularly in less than 10 minutes, but I do the journey every day, the usual time is about 7-8 minutes unless platform 4C is involved in which case 10 will be needed. I've done it in 5 minutes at a fast waddle when trying to get the 19:31 to Spring Road and not fancying the wait for the next one.

 

[Skymonster]

The thing that puzzles me is why NRE always suggests New Street - Snow Hill (and vice versa) rather than New Street - Moor Street. The walk to Moor Street is shorter and seems easier to me.

 

[Hadders]

The thing that puzzles me is why NRE always suggests New Street - Snow Hill (and vice versa) rather than New Street - Moor Street. The walk to Moor Street is shorter and seems easier to me.

Because it will often allow an overall shorter journey time.

Lets say you arrive at 12:00 at Birmingham New Street and you need to get a train from either Moor Street or Snow Hill
The earliest official connection from Moor Street would be at 12:25
From Snow Hill the earliest official connection would be 12:27
Trains between Moor Street and Snow Hill seem to be timetabled at 4 minutes

So a connecting train due to depart Moor Street at 12:24 would not be an official connection but it would be an official connection at Moor Street with a departure time of 12:28.

 

[adrock1976]

I can remember the minimum interchange time at Birmingham New Street being 15 minutes from when I used to reside in the West Midlands.

The thing that puzzles me is that I cannot work out how or why it was reduced by 3 minutes, and this was before the station concourse was recently rebuilt.

 

[The Planner]

TOCs more than likely agreed it should be lowered to get them out of a timetable connection problem.

 

[Class 170101]

Ely has been either 4 or 6 minutes at various times over the years.