What are the provisions in place to stop steam trains entering enclosed areas?

[NightatLaira]

What are the provisions in place to stop steam trains entering enclosed areas?

With the profusion of steam charters about the place these days in the summer I imagine the scenes could be quite chaotic if an engine in full steam was accidentally diverted into an enclosed station such as the Merseyrail tunnels, Birmingham New Street or Heathrow for instance?

Has anything like this ever happened? Would it set-off the fire alarms?

 

[90019]

Has anything like this ever happened? Would it set-off the fire alarms?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQTinmPjS_o

 

[First class]

It simply wouldn't fit into the Merseyrail tunnels.

An interesting fact is that there is no smoke detectors on the Merseyrail underground platforms. The way in which fire is detected is by CCTV in the 24/7 manned control room based remotely at Sandhills IECC. When the MPV comes through LVC it absolutely stinks of diesel fumes but nothing happens.

 

[NightatLaira]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQTinmPjS_o

Brilliant! Absolutely Brilliant!

So there's never been a steam excursion into Heathrow then?

 

[LE Greys]

I think that shows why somebody invented condensing gear. It's a pity they couldn't get the N2 working and certified in time to return to Moorgate via the Widened Lines. Not much clag with the condensers on, but I bet it would have been noisy.

Still, that brings me onto something else, what about diesels in enclosed stations (Queen St LL for instance). How do they prevent problems with that?

 

[142094]

Still, that brings me onto something else, what about diesels in enclosed stations (Queen St LL for instance). How do they prevent problems with that?

Grand Central had problems with the fire alarms at Sunderland with the HSTs. They got around the problem IIRC by having only one power car running in the station, but someone will have a definite answer.

 

[jopsuk]

There aren't any regular diesel services through Queen Street LL as far as I'm aware? It also isn't that enclosed- it's a big wide space, and open at the ends- you can see how far apart the lines are here. The only diesels I'd have thought would be engineering trains- shouldn't be too hard to arrange to stop them with the loco "outside"?

The Argyle line, through Glasgow Central Low Level, is rather more "Underground"

 

[Aictos]

At City Thameslink, they have extractor fans which as it's a Underground station have to switch on if any diesels come though be weed spraying or engineering trains.

 

[NightatLaira]

There aren't any regular diesel services through Queen Street LL as far as I'm aware? It also isn't that enclosed- it's a big wide space, and open at the ends- you can see how far apart the lines are here. The only diesels I'd have thought would be engineering trains- shouldn't be too hard to arrange to stop them with the loco "outside"?

The Argyle line, through Glasgow Central Low Level, is rather more "Underground"

Deerstalker quite frequently goes through Glasgow Queen Street Low Level on diversion with a 67 so I believe...

 

[scotsman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FTvRaIYBM4

Listen to 40145 set off fire alarms!

 

[Class377/5]

At City Thameslink, they have extractor fans which as it's a Underground station have to switch on if any diesels come though be weed spraying or engineering trains.

That's not quite right. You isolate the fire alarm system on the platform areas and put the extractor fans on to stop any diesels flumes remaining in the station.

Because of this NR give the station staff advanced warning of any diesel workings to ensure smooth running.

 

[33056]

All steam charters and ECS moves appear on a special notice which will detail any route or other restrictions. For example, IIRC, when 6201 worked into Euston last month, I think the instructions were that it was to stop at the "HST STOP" board.

 

[WatcherZero]

It simply wouldn't fit into the Merseyrail tunnels.

An interesting fact is that there is no smoke detectors on the Merseyrail underground platforms. The way in which fire is detected is by CCTV in the 24/7 manned control room based remotely at Sandhills IECC. When the MPV comes through LVC it absolutely stinks of diesel fumes but nothing happens.

No infrared heat sensors either?

 

[route:oxford]

There aren't any regular diesel services through Queen Street LL as far as I'm aware? It also isn't that enclosed- it's a big wide space, and open at the ends- you can see how far apart the lines are here. The only diesels I'd have thought would be engineering trains- shouldn't be too hard to arrange to stop them with the loco "outside"?

The Argyle line, through Glasgow Central Low Level, is rather more "Underground"

Thanks for posting the link. For all the years I worked in Weegieland and have used Queen Street (HL) hadn't realised that LL was "open-air" to either side of the station. Was the route built as "cut&cover" under West Regent Street & Kent Road? I haven't spotted any ventilation ducts along the path.

 

[NightatLaira]

I think it may have been... but perhaps it's not ventilated.

At the time of building I'm fairly sure steam would still have been in existence. i've also seen an EWS 66 go through on its own at GC LL.

 

[O L Leigh]

It's all down to the rules of the route. Certain types of traction are not allowed in certain areas, and so the signaller will route them accordingly. All of these workings will appear in the notices and amended workings, showing which platforms of which stations they will use and what routes they will take.

Some stations are classed as "sub-surface" and, while they aren't barred from accepting things like diesel traction, there are certain local instructions to be observed. Therefore, any diesel train entering the east side of Liverpool Street or platforms 1 or 3 at Stansted Airport must be shut down on arrival and only re-started just prior to departure. Through stations are less problematic though, as the dwell times are shorter.

Steam traction is a bit more problematic because you can't just shut down a "kettle". Therefore this type of traction is banned from operating into certain locations. Likewise it is often banned from operating over certain sections of route if it is likely to cause operational problems. For example, any steam train leaving Liverpool Street and taking the West Anglia route must be routed via Stratford and the Temple Mills line because of the tight clearances in the Clapton tunnels and the history of steam locos causing the overheads to trip out because of the carbon rich exhaust and steam they give off.

O L Leigh

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Re: Glasgow Queen Street

Was the route built as "cut&cover" under West Regent Street & Kent Road? I haven't spotted any ventilation ducts along the path.

Yes, it was.

It was originally built as the Glasgow City and District Railway Line and operated by the North British Railway Company and while people often refer to the Glasgow Subway as being older than the London Underground, the Queen Street Low Level was operating even before the Subway.
The Low level station used to have four platforms (when you see how wide the platforms are at present you can see how easily more could have been accommodated.
I believe that it was originally operated by steam hauled trains which took electric power from a third rail purely for carriage lighting. I'd be interested to hear if anyone knows any more about that unusual powering arrangement; it sounds very unusual.
Steam wasn't replaced by electric trains in there until around 1960, so it must have been a smoky and smelly place (but what industrial cities weren't back then?

 

[12CSVT]

Here's a curiosity. Class 171s are banned from Victoria station apparantly because of exhaust fumes, yet when the class 205/207 'Thumper' units were still in service, they were diagrammed to work in an out of Victoria on a daily basis until May 2004.

 

[O L Leigh]

It's probably due to the difference between the eastern (Continental) side of the station and the western side. Victoria is much like Liv St in that it is effectively divided into two stations with very different characteristics.

There is a problem with running diesels into the more confined western side because it looks like it would be classified as a "sub-surface" station whereas the eastern side is much more open and airy. If this is the case, I imagine that Victoria has similar arrangements to Liv St in that diesel services are not specifically banned from the "sub-surface" platforms, but that the train must be shut down on arrival and only restarted just prior to departure to avoid the exhaust setting off the fire alarms. This is why NXEA Cl170's are almost always routed into the more open west side of Liv St.

The reason why the Thumpers would have been fine is because they worked the south-eastern division and would almost have certainly used the eastern side of Victoria. Since the reorganisation of the divisions and the move of these services to the south-central division (Southern), Cl171's would be more likely to be routed into the western side. If this is the case, it would appear that Southern have simply made a pragmatic decision to route these units elsewhere rather than have the aggravation of shutting these units down on arrival each time.

O L Leigh

 

[hello]

thumpers going into victoria on the central side, could be routed into platforms 18 and 19, where if you look when you are there, there are extractor fans directly above where the thumpers exhausts would have been. 171 exhausts are in a completely different place to where the thumpers were, hence why they are not permitted

 

[O L Leigh]

Could someone with the relevant sectional appendix or with a working knowledge of the local instructions at Victoria please confirm if there is an outright ban on these units?

As I said before, it should be possible to work them into a confined space such as the west side of Victoria provided they are shut down on arrival, whether there are extractor fans or not.

O L Leigh