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What are your suggestions for a new route between Exeter and Plymouth avoiding Dawlish?

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83A

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Could there be an alternative route between Newton Abbott and Exeter avoiding Dawlish

In short there are 4 options:

1) Use the current sea route and improve. Which seems to be the plan now.
2) Re-open the withered arm from Okehamton to Bere Alston. A favourite with enthusiasts but goes nowhere much not very quickly and would need a very expensive viaduct at Meldon. Does not resolve access to the populated Newton Abbot/Torbay area.
3) Re open the Teign Valley route from Heathfield to Exeter. This was a slow route and flooded on a regular basis, now has the A38 over parts of it.
4) Build a new route under Haldon Hill diverging at Exeminster and joining the west side of Teignmouth. This was actually planned by the GWR until WWII stopped it. Maybe the best but most expensive option. Would mean Dawlish and Teignmouth lose their rail service.
 

New Girl

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I have heard about the Haldon Hill route being planned in the 1930s, which route would the Halden Hill have taken
Maybe would be the most expensive, perhaps this route could be used in the event of bad weather at Dawlish and used as a Heritage line the rest of the year
I was watching Walking Disused Railways
Surely there is a viaduct at Meldon
Also The tracks are still in use between Meldon and Oakhampton and on to Exeter
Again these two routes could be worked side by side
The Bwere Alston Oakhampton route seems to be favoured by Devon County Council
Not sure about the Teign Valley route
 
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Dr Hoo

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The Meldon route is of no help at all for Newton Abbot and the rest of the populous Torbay area.
 

83A

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No need to ditch the Dawlish route Use the Meldon Route as a heratige line from Bere Aleston to Oakhampton

Who is going to pay the substantial cost to re open the Meldon route just to run a leasure service? A new viaduct would be a huge sum of money, not to mention how you might get the OK to build in a national park!
 

New Girl

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I understand there is a group looking into the possibility of opening the Meldon route, something needs to be done in case the coastal route floods again
As I said before in an argument between the sea and railways the sea usually wins
With all due respects I don't fancy being cut off for weeks on end again next time the coastal route floods, while Network Rail makes up its mind what to do next especially as I have Hospital Appointments to keep in Exeter
Where do other Heritage railways get their funding from
It might be better to look into the Halden Hill route again
 
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swt_passenger

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I understand there is a group looking into the possibility of opening the Meldon route, something needs to be done in case the coastal route floods again
As I said before in an argument between the sea and railways the sea usually wins
With all due respects I don't fancy being cut off for weeks on end again next time the coastal route floods, while Network Rail makes up its mind what to do next especially as I have Hospital Appointments to keep in Exeter
Where do other Heritage railways get their funding from
It might be better to look into the Halden Hill route again
You need to read the whole thread I think. I’m pretty sure the DfT/NR has already made their decision, and it has been to protect the Dawlish route, hence the current works, and future works going through planning; and I strongly suspects that’s it...
 

DynamicSpirit

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I understand there is a group looking into the possibility of opening the Meldon route, something needs to be done in case the coastal route floods again
As I said before in an argument between the sea and railways the sea usually wins
Where do other Heritage railways get their funding from

Realistically, NR are already paying huge amounts of money to protect the Dawlish route to make it less likely that it would flood to the point of being out of action for months on end again. Re-opening Tavistock-Okehampton would cost £hundreds of millions. Personally I'd love to see it open, but it's hard to justify that kind of money when day-to-day it only serves a population of a few tens of thousand. And opening a railway line just so it's there in case other lines are closed is also pretty poor use of money when there are loads of other places around the country where a new railway would serve far larger populations every day than Meldon would. The only way I can see it opening is if a political decision is made that the Government wishes to specifically support the communities around Okehampton and Tavistock to the tune of the cost of a new line.

For what it's worth, if I held the purse strings and was tasked with building an alternative route, I'd be prioritising just building (largely, tunnelling) a new high speed line direct from Exeter to Plymouth. It would cost billions - maybe on a rough guess 10-20 times as much as Meldon, but benefit maybe a hundred times as many people - including giving the entire populations of Plymouth and Cornwall a much faster link to the rest of the UK, making Plymouth-Exeter easily commutable by rail, and getting most of the fast trains off the Dawlish corridor to free up capacity for more local trains and a more robust timetable there - none of those things would be achieved by Meldon, which would at best simply provide a long commuter service for locals. Plus compared to Meldon, a new high speed line is more likely to make an operating profit once it's in use - Meldon is much more likely to require ongoing subsidy after opening. But that's just my view. As @swt_passenger rightly says, at the moment the solution being implemented is to protect the Dawlish corridor full stop (which itself is costing ££huge).
 

Bald Rick

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With all due respects I don't fancy being cut off for weeks on end again next time the coastal route floods

With all due respect back, you weren’t cut off, as there were plenty of other ways to get about, just not by train.
 

class26

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Realistically, NR are already paying huge amounts of money to protect the Dawlish route to make it less likely that it would flood to the point of being out of action for months on end again. Re-opening Tavistock-Okehampton would cost £hundreds of millions. Personally I'd love to see it open, but it's hard to justify that kind of money when day-to-day it only serves a population of a few tens of thousand. And opening a railway line just so it's there in case other lines are closed is also pretty poor use of money when there are loads of other places around the country where a new railway would serve far larger populations every day than Meldon would. The only way I can see it opening is if a political decision is made that the Government wishes to specifically support the communities around Okehampton and Tavistock to the tune of the cost of a new line.

.

The population though is probably more than in the Scottish borders but they managed to build a line twice as long as would be required here
 
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DynamicSpirit

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The population though is probably more than in the Scottish borders but they managed to build a line twice as long as would be required here.

Is the population greater? The Borders line serves Tweedbank and Galashiels, and brings a sizeable area around Tweedbacnk within reach of a railway line. The Meldon route basically serves Tavistock, and adds rail access to only a relatively small area beyond. (Since the wider area is already either served by the Gunnislake route, or could be served by the Okehampton-Exeter line if that was reopened on a daily basis- which could be done without Meldon for a relatively small cost). I haven't checked the exact populations, but that looks to me like the Borders line brings rail to an at least slighter bigger population than Meldon would.

Regarding your point that they did open the Borders line - I think that precisely matches my point that Meldon would need to be a political decision made in spite of financial realities - because that's exactly what happened in the Borders - the line was re-opened to satisfy political requirements (enabling a coalition Scottish Government), despite that there were other routes in Scotland that arguably would have given much better value for money if reopened. (Not that I'm complaining about the Borders line - I'm still glad that it has opened, and I can see there are social arguments for its re-opening).
 
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class26

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Is the population greater? The Borders line serves Tweedbank and Galashiels, and brings a sizeable area around Tweedbacnk within reach of a railway line. The Meldon route basically serves Tavistock, and adds rail access to only a relatively small area beyond. (Since the wider area is already either served by the Gunnislake route, or could be served by the Okehampton-Exeter line if that was reopened on a daily basis- which could be done without Meldon for a relatively small cost). I haven't checked the exact populations, but that looks to me like the Borders line brings rail to an at least slighter bigger population than Meldon would.

Regarding your point that they did open the Borders line - I think that precisely matches my point that Meldon would need to be a political decision made in spite of financial realities - because that's exactly what happened in the Borders - the line was re-opened to satisfy political requirements (enabling a coalition Scottish Government), despite that there were other routes in Scotland that arguably would have given much better value for money if reopened. (Not that I'm complaining about the Borders line - I'm still glad that it has opened, and I can see there are social arguments for its re-opening).

I don`t really think the population is that much of an issue, neither are huge. The issue is the Scots had the political will and it happened.
 

83A

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Okehampton is already linked with Exeter.

I think all that needs to be done is link Tavistock with Plymouth. That’s not a huge cost to solve.

I see little point in spending vast sums linking the two. If the viaduct wasn’t required it would probably be much cheaper. But it does.
 

Sir Felix Pole

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At the last estimate Tavistock to Bere Alston was £93m to restore, but West Devon BC only received £10m from the developers of the housing estate (construction of which is currently stalled) so there is a considerable shortfall. Devon CC latest plan is for an battery-bus service instead, but I do get the sense that railway reinstatement is moving up the agenda again with a lot of lobbying from local MPs and councillors. If, and when, we get past COVID-19 there will be a significant fiscal stimulus to get the economy moving again - austerity is so last-year - and there have been strong hints about restarting the rail electrification program and investment in new lines. Of the West Country proposals for the 'Reversing Beeching' fund, Tavistock is the strongest - Brent to Kingsbridge and Newton Abbot to Heathfield are plainly ridiculous, whilst Lostwithiel to Fowey has the issue of Fowey station and interaction with the port.
 

Bald Rick

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Of the West Country proposals for the 'Reversing Beeching' fund, Tavistock is the strongest - Brent to Kingsbridge and Newton Abbot to Heathfield are plainly ridiculous, whilst Lostwithiel to Fowey has the issue of Fowey station and interaction with the port.

Portishead is strongest, assuming that counts as the West Country.
 

Cowley

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Portishead is strongest, assuming that counts as the West Country.
Bideford is one that’s been mentioned a fair bit down here as well. I’d be amazed if it ever happened though.
 

Bald Rick

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Is Portishead part of the 'Reversing Beeching' fund? I thought that was already on-going with funds committed before this Reversing Beeching fund thingy came in?

There isn’t a commitment to deliver Portishead yet. If and when it comes, it will be part of this programme.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Bideford is one that’s been mentioned a fair bit down here as well. I’d be amazed if it ever happened though.

Out of interest, were there any proposals in the Reversing Beeching fund for Paignton to Brixham? Just on population levels, that would seem to be the most useful, though I'm not sure if there are any heritage railway conflicts.
 

Cowley

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Out of interest, were there any proposals in the Reversing Beeching fund for Paignton to Brixham? Just on population levels, that would seem to be the most useful, though I'm not sure if there are any heritage railway conflicts.
That’s another one that’s been mentioned, you’re right.
The junction at Churston would mean a reversal to head towards Paignton and Exeter etc, and apart the enormous cost of putting the line back and coming to some arrangement with the Dartmouth Steam Railway, there’s also the old problem that the original station and route was at the top of a massive hill.
 

83A

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Newton Abbot to Heathfield are plainly ridiculous,

At risk of going off topic...... but why would you consider Newton to Heathfied ridiculous? The track is at least in place, there are platforms at both ends and Newton even has a bay if you wanted. There are granted a couple of level crossings to deal with. Bovey and Heathfield are both growing and not far off being connected. If Bovey heath was not SSI Im sure it would have been build over already...
 

devonexpress

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The only realistic option is the Heathfield branch, of which several million would need to be used to improve flood resistance, and find ways to pass over the A38, as well as the issues around Exeter/Matford.
 
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For what it's worth, if I held the purse strings and was tasked with building an alternative route, I'd be prioritising just building (largely, tunnelling) a new high speed line direct from Exeter to Plymouth. It would cost billions - maybe on a rough guess 10-20 times as much as Meldon, but benefit maybe a hundred times as many people - including giving the entire populations of Plymouth and Cornwall a much faster link to the rest of the UK, making Plymouth-Exeter easily commutable by rail, and getting most of the fast trains off the Dawlish corridor to free up capacity for more local trains and a more robust timetable there - none of those things would be achieved by Meldon, which would at best simply provide a long commuter service for locals. Plus compared to Meldon, a new high speed line is more likely to make an operating profit once it's in use - Meldon is much more likely to require ongoing subsidy after opening. But that's just my view. As @swt_passenger rightly says, at the moment the solution being implemented is to protect the Dawlish corridor full stop (which itself is costing ££huge).

The one major downside of this would be the 'abandonment' of Torbay in the event of disruption at Dawlish I guess. But it would mean you could still run services between say Newton Abbot and Plymouth, and the region wouldn't be severed from the rest of the network.

Wouldn't there be a case for any such high speed line to stop at Newton Abbot anyway, as a 'Torbay Parkway'? Plymouth is the only major settlement beyond it anyway so perhaps it would benefit more people than it disadvantages. At that point, you have a high speed connection and no one gets fully cut off during Dawlish disruptions except the stations directly affected which you couldn't exactly serve by train at all during such a scenario anyway!
 

Grecian 1998

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A difficulty with building an entirely new route is that the Exeter-Torbay corridor is a populous one by Devon standards and therefore a relatively important one to serve by rail, but moving all Cornish traffic onto a new route would make the economics of the current route weaker. That said, as NR are responsible for maintaining the sea wall regardless, I understand they've taken the view they might as well allow trains to run along it.

Contrary to popular belief (although it hasn't yet appeared on this thread), building a new route between Exeter and Newton Abbot would only save a handful of minutes. Voyagers can currently do the 20 miles between them in 18 minutes. The slow section is the 32 miles between Newton Abbot and Plymouth, where non-stop services can't average 60mph.

The long-term options do appear to be: 1: Carry on as now for as long as is physically viable. 2: Build a new line between Newton Abbot and Exeter at massive short-term expense which will save about 5 minutes at most and abandon the existing route. 3: Build an entirely new route between Exeter and Plymouth at even greater expense and try to maintain the existing route as long as possible, or build a spur off the new route to join at Newton Abbot, which will also be expensive.

Much as I'd like to see the old route via Meldon open in full, it isn't going to happen because it goes through a much more sparsely populated area than the current route.

The Teign Valley route has less chance of reopening than a high speed link to Atlantis. It was a slow meandering single track country branch line with almost no passenger traffic which closed in 1958, several years before Beeching, and the half mile long Perridge Tunnel has collapsed anyway. The cost of trying to realign a Victorian era branch line to high speed standards with double track clearances is probably more than building a new route.
 

MarkyT

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Contrary to popular belief (although it hasn't yet appeared on this thread), building a new route between Exeter and Newton Abbot would only save a handful of minutes. Voyagers can currently do the 20 miles between them in 18 minutes. The slow section is the 32 miles between Newton Abbot and Plymouth, where non-stop services can't average 60mph.
About 5 miles might be saved by a direct route, and a considerably higher speed achieved by a modern direct alignment through the Haldon hills, much of it in tunnel, so perhaps up to 10 minutes might be saved. The coastal route is also limited by an upper speed limit of 60 to 80 mph and is further constrained by the need to run a frequent local stopping service between the expresses that takes double the journey time. A new alignment between Totnes and Plymouth could also save possibly another 15 minutes or so, so combined these improvements could finally enable rail to comfortably beat a direct non-stop road journey between the two cities on the A38 while still retaining the valuable regular stops at Newton Abbot and Totnes, which together generate nearly as much traffic as each one of the two major Devon cities. Such a scheme would transform travel in the south-west along its major axis.

Here's my 2014 concept for the Exeter - Newton Abbot leg: http://www.townend.me/files/southdevon.pdf

It is important to understand that such a new route would not replace the coastal route, which would remain primarily for local stopping train service, and that could be scheduled more flexibly and frequently without the constraints of fitting between the expresses. Some longer distance services, particularly holiday period extra trains and the special steam-hauled excursions that traditionally run in the area could continue to go via the scenic coastal line and stop as desired at Dawlish and Teignmouth, and the two lines could act as diversionary routes for each other to allow heavy maintenance work to be carried out at quiet times.
The Teign Valley route has less chance of reopening than a high speed link to Atlantis. It was a slow meandering single track country branch line with almost no passenger traffic which closed in 1958, several years before Beeching, and the half mile long Perridge Tunnel has collapsed anyway. The cost of trying to realign a Victorian era branch line to high speed standards with double track clearances is probably more than building a new route.
I fully agree. It was poor to begin with, and the alignment has either been obliterated by new development or has decayed irrevocably. My new line concept uses the extremities of the alignment however at both Exeter and Newton Abbot.
 
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