What happens with disabled passengers when platforms are changed at the last minute?

[infobleep]

If a platform is changed at the very last minute and announced as a change, as the train is pulling in, what happens to disabled passengers? Are they told they must catch the next train or would they hold the train up for them to get round to the platform. Would it depend on the frequency of trains as to whether it's held? I know they clearly have to be held for staff as you can't run a train without staff. It seems to be less important for able bodied people though - after all they can run between platforms.

This thought occurred to me tonight after there was a platform change announced at Woking, as the train was pulling in. The platform it was booked for was platform 5 but it came in on platform 4. This happens every so often at Woking. This was the 18.58 to Portsmouth Harbour. Now the 18.58 is a fast service, where as the 19.14 is a slow service so I can imagine people preferring to board the former, especially if they are changing trains at Havant.

A man said to platform staff that there was a lady with a push chair trying to catch it.

I don't know if the lady caught the train as I was stuck on the 18.52 arrival from Waterloo. A rare event occurred where by that train officially left Surbiton on time. However it made no difference to my journey on the service as an earlier train to Haslemere was 5 minutes late leaving Woking, which in turn delayed a stopping service, which becomes an ECS from Woking and instead of putting the 18.52 arrival onto platform 4, they let the Portsmouth Harbour train go ahead.

To make it worse for me, they the held the Portsmouth Harbour train south of Woking to let the late running Basingstoke service through. It's not easy being a signalman but often the Portsmouth Harbour train is held and run into platform 5 late. Selfishly I'd prefer that out come as I wouldn't miss the train, especially as the train is only going to be held up south of Woking anyway, judging by what happened tonight.

 

[Clip]

If they have assistance then generally they would be told first of an alteration if not too late in the day.

I guess the only other option would be to put them on a later train. I am no sure what else you would expect us to do given we dont determine what platform trains come in on on multi platform stations.

 

[Hornet]

Saw this happen at Reading this year. Man in a wheelchair, complete with booked assistance, along with other passengers, being told at the very last minute of a platform change. Cue charge over footbridge of able bodied passengers, with wheelchair passenger, pushed by the Station Staff member to nearest lift. Able body passengers made it onto the re-platformed train with several advising the Guard. Guard says he cannot hold the Train, as out of the lift appears said wheelchair passenger along with Station Staff member. As the wheelchair passenger reaches his designated (and booked) carriage, Guard locks the door and gives the 'Right Away' signal to the Driver. Cue one upset wheelchair passenger and a rather angry member of Reading Station Staff, along with several disgusted passengers on the Train as it slowly pulled away.

 

[Pumbaa]

They are at the mercy of the Guard and Platform Staff. More often than not, Guards are indifferent to last minute platform changes and will go when it looks like everyone's on. It is a depressingly common situation

 

[455driver]

The guard probably wouldnt know the platform had been changed at the last minute, for all they know the swap could have been arranged ages ago.

Okay in the Reading example above then they would have been aware.

When I was a guard working the 0042 to Strawberry Hill we went (as our diagram) up the Windsor side from Clapham jn. Unfortunately all the passengers were on the mainline side (platform 11) because somebody had decided to run it normal route, the only people not told were the traincrew and signaller!
Cue train leaving without the passengers.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

At Woking they have walkie talkies to contact the box & other members of staff, so that they should be able to alert them to the need to hold it and if the signaller is on the ball he can make the SCP/Announcer aware of the platform alteration ASAP.

However you're still dealing with peak time departures, so time is very much of the essence and holding a train there can have quite serious repercussions further down the line at junctions such as Guildford & Havant or Basingstoke, St Denys & Redbridge. So it may not be practical to hold the train without impinging on other trains which may or may not be booked to call

At Reading they definitely have walkie talkies and they should have communicated to the other members of staff that they have a "mobility impaired" (we must be PC you know!) traveller being assisted by other members of staff to meet it & they should have called TVSC to let them know that there will be a delay to that train, saying that TVSC should have given the SCP/Announcer enough warning to ensure that they could transfer all passengers over to the correct platform,

 

[455driver]

At Woking they have walkie talkies to contact the box & other members of staff, so that they should be able to alert them to the need to hold it and if the signaller is on the ball he can make the SCP/Announcer aware of the platform alteration ASAP.

It was home time!
Need i say more!

 

[LowLevel]

Depends on the circumstances. As a guard at a largish depot we have 60 plus running turns. I have no idea which platforms at larger stations my train is booked to use. I wouldn't know the platform had been altered unless I was told.

If a set swap or similar happens I walk behind the last passenger to make sure they all make it over.

 

[muz379]

Unfortunately sometimes it is bound to happen that there will be a last minute platform alteration and somebody either in a wheelchair or with a pram will miss that train .

I have had it before where I have had a platform alteration and a dispatcher who has a radio hears that there is a disabled passenger making their way and so they will hold me .

Or If I am told by another passenger there is a disabled passenger coming then I will hold my train for a few minutes for them depending on where I am and how frequent the service to my destination is from there . If its say an hourly train then I will be more inclined to wait than if there is 4 or more trains an hour .

But if it is not a manned station or it is not as busy . Or I dont even know there has been a platform alteration then I might inadvertently leave without a disabled passenger .

 

[infobleep]

Saw this happen at Reading this year. Man in a wheelchair, complete with booked assistance, along with other passengers, being told at the very last minute of a platform change. Cue charge over footbridge of able bodied passengers, with wheelchair passenger, pushed by the Station Staff member to nearest lift. Able body passengers made it onto the re-platformed train with several advising the Guard, (refuse to call him an onboard Train Manager as his ability to manage was non existant). Guard says he cannot hold the Train, as out of the lift appears said wheelchair passenger along with Station Staff member. As the wheelchair passenger reaches his designated (and booked) carriage, Guard locks the door and gives the 'Right Away' signal to the Driver. Cue one upset wheelchair passenger and a rather angry member of Reading Station Staff, along with several disgusted passengers on the Train as it slowly pulled away. Hopefully the Guard got his come uppance whether it was from passengers on the Train, or a no tea, no biscuits meeting with his line manager. Obnoxious individual.

Of course I bet that guard wouldn't run if he was going to delay a train by not doing so.

It's OK for staff to delay trains but not running but in his case he thought it OK not to wait for a disabled person. Life is unfair of course but I don't see anything wrong in highlighting it, even if nothing can be done.

 

[infobleep]

The guard probably wouldnt know the platform had been changed at the last minute, for all they know the swap could have been arranged ages ago.

Okay in the Reading example above then they would have been aware.

When I was a guard working the 0042 to Strawberry Hill we went (as our diagram) up the Windsor side from Clapham jn. Unfortunately all the passengers were on the mainline side (platform 11) because somebody had decided to run it normal route, the only people not told were the traincrew and signaller!
Cue train leaving without the passengers.

Would that have been to last train of the night? I guess London has night buses so people could catch those. I wouldn't like to be a member of platform staff though.

A couple of friends once missed their last train because the public timetable online for engineering work was wrong. They'd seen it on the FCC site but unfortunately for Southern, their site was the only site to have a copy after the event so they claimed the taxi fare off them!

I do wonder how blind people cope late at night when trains switch platforms and no announcements are made, with it only appearing on the screens. May be all stations now broadcast announcements late at night. They didn't 13 years ago. Or perhaps a blind person wouldn't be out so late without booked assistance or a travelling companion. My father is registered blind but he has my mum with him.

 

[infobleep]

At Woking they have walkie talkies to contact the box & other members of staff, so that they should be able to alert them to the need to hold it and if the signaller is on the ball he can make the SCP/Announcer aware of the platform alteration ASAP.

However you're still dealing with peak time departures, so time is very much of the essence and holding a train there can have quite serious repercussions further down the line at junctions such as Guildford & Havant or Basingstoke, St Denys & Redbridge. So it may not be practical to hold the train without impinging on other trains which may or may not be booked to call

At Reading they definitely have walkie talkies and they should have communicated to the other members of staff that they have a "mobility impaired" (we must be PC you know!) traveller being assisted by other members of staff to meet it & they should have called TVSC to let them know that there will be a delay to that train, saying that TVSC should have given the SCP/Announcer enough warning to ensure that they could transfer all passengers over to the correct platform,

Wow I didn't release they would have contact with the signalman. In the past when every station had a signal box I'd have expected it but not these days because the signal centres cover a wider area and are bigger.

 

[infobleep]

Depends on the circumstances. As a guard at a largish depot we have 60 plus running turns. I have no idea which platforms at larger stations my train is booked to use. I wouldn't know the platform had been altered unless I was told.

If a set swap or similar happens I walk behind the last passenger to make sure they all make it over.

So would you base your door opening purely on which side the train comes in? As a passenger/commuter we generally have a starting station and end station which is mostly the same so it's easy to remember such things.

 

[Mike99]

So would you base your door opening purely on which side the train comes in?

Probably be best to!!

 

[PeterC]

May be all stations now broadcast announcements late at night.

Haven't some stations had enforcement notices from the local authority to prevent late evening announcements?

I don't understand why people move into properties next to noisy activities and then complain but they do and the LA is required to act.

 

[thealexweb]

At Edinburgh Waverley, every single Manchester Airport service has its platform announced with only 15 minutes prior to departure and the doors only open with less than ten minutes until departure. Very poor, as it results in hoards of people running over at the last minute. The crush to get abroad is far worse than even the rush-hour service to King Cross. Its difficult for fully able folk so I fear for the disabled.

 

[LowLevel]

So would you base your door opening purely on which side the train comes in? As a passenger/commuter we generally have a starting station and end station which is mostly the same so it's easy to remember such things.

Where I know it's safe to do so and I have the opportunity to do so I pop my head out of the cab window and check the last signal on approach which will tell me where we are going in 99% of cases. If I don't have chance or it's at Skegness where there's no indication to anyone including the driver where the route is set I have to wait and see until we get there.

 

[PHILIPE]

At Edinburgh Waverley, every single Manchester Airport service has its platform announced with only 15 minutes prior to departure and the doors only open with less than ten minutes until departure. Very poor, as it results in hoards of people running over at the last minute. The crush to get abroad is far worse than even the rush-hour service to King Cross. Its difficult for fully able folk so I fear for the disabled.

Paddington's often less than that

 

[infobleep]

Paddington's often less than that

At Euston it can be less than 2 minutes prior to the on time departure time shown for London Midland. Inevitably the train will leave late as it's arrived in late but the screens don't tell you that so passengers not in the know must only assume it's going to leave on time.

 

[SPADTrap]

So would you base your door opening purely on which side the train comes in? As a passenger/commuter we generally have a starting station and end station which is mostly the same so it's easy to remember such things.

No, 50/50 guess don't you know?

 

[455driver]

At Edinburgh Waverley, every single Manchester Airport service has its platform announced with only 15 minutes prior to departure and the doors only open with less than ten minutes until departure. Very poor, as it results in hoards of people running over at the last minute. The crush to get abroad is far worse than even the rush-hour service to King Cross. Its difficult for fully able folk so I fear for the disabled.

What about the through trains, how long before departure time are those announced?

If 10 minutes isnt enough then how long do you propose?

 

[thealexweb]

What about the through trains, how long before departure time are those announced?

If 10 minutes isnt enough then how long do you propose?

Through trains appear on the boards up to an hour before hand. For Transpennine services as soon as the platform is shown on the arrival board for the incoming service I would expect the platform to be shown on the departure board for the outgoing service. This would give Transpennine passengers 30 minutes warning.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Through trains appear on the boards up to an hour before hand. For Transpennine services as soon as the platform is shown on the arrival board for the incoming service I would expect the platform to be shown on the departure board for the outgoing service. This would give Transpennine passengers 30 minutes warning.

So the train has to be cleaned and prepped whilst hoards of people swarm onto the thing...?

Edit - or the platform outside, creating dangerous overcrowding in a confined area?

 

[thealexweb]

So the train has to be cleaned and prepped whilst hoards of people swarm onto the thing...?

Edit - or the platform outside, creating dangerous overcrowding in a confined area?

I would expect the passengers to wait outside till the unit is ready. If the platform information was available earlier it would be a gradual build up and people would have time to walk down and use the whole platform. Revealing it at the last minute causes great swarms to overcrowd the small area of the platform nearest the concourse. I would expect the unit to be ready and doors open at least 15 minutes before departure.

 

[455driver]

I would expect the passengers to wait outside till the unit is ready.

This statement shows how little you know about the great British travelling public!

 

[LowLevel]

I would expect the passengers to wait outside till the unit is ready. If the platform information was available earlier it would be a gradual build up and people would have time to walk down and use the whole platform. Revealing it at the last minute causes great swarms to overcrowd the small area of the platform nearest the concourse. I would expect the unit to be ready and doors open at least 15 minutes before departure.

How naive! You should see the huffs and puffs I get when I kick off the early birds who shove on on arrival 25 minutes before departure so the cleaner can clean it on one of our long distance services - it only takes just over 5 minutes but you'd think we asked them to stand outside in a thunderstorm holding a lightning rod. I'd be much happier if the platform was withheld until I advised the announcer it was ready for boarding!

 

[thealexweb]

How naive! You should see the huffs and puffs I get when I kick off the early birds who shove on on arrival 25 minutes before departure so the cleaner can clean it on one of our long distance services - it only takes just over 5 minutes but you'd think we asked them to stand outside in a thunderstorm holding a lightning rod. I'd be much happier if the platform was withheld until I advised the announcer it was ready for boarding!

Is the unit not locked after the incoming passengers have got off?

And your idea would only work if the announcement came at least 15 minutes before departure. Anything less than that and you will make the stampedes worse.

 

[jon0844]

I do wonder how blind people cope late at night when trains switch platforms and no announcements are made, with it only appearing on the screens.

I wonder that sometimes too. Indeed, many stations in residential areas (or near residential areas) now restrict the volume of announcements, and have removed speakers at certain parts of the platform.

Even if there was an announcement, you might not hear it.

One particularly odd example is that on platforms 2/3 at Hatfield, which I'd argue is only close to commercial property, has a speaker at the foot of the steps. For those that don't know the station, the stairs are at the southern end of the 8-car length platform.

All trains stop at the far (northern) end. Thus a 3 car train is 5/6 coaches down.

There are screens further down, but no speaker (or there wasn't in case GTR/NR has since put one up as part of the station upgrade work) so if you walk to where the train is going to stop, you're well over 100 metres away from the speaker that is already on a low volume.

 

[LowLevel]

It is - once everyone has got off. By which time several early comers near the barriers have gotten on board (often regulars who know exactly what the crack is but choose to do it anyway on the off chance the guard is a lazy sod who can't be bothered to throw them off). It's a curved platform so you can't just shut the doors without checking or there's a risk of trapping someone. If the train is on time I open it up at least 12 minutes before departure. If it's not I judge between delaying boarding and cancelling reservations to keep our path.

 

[jon0844]

At Euston it can be less than 2 minutes prior to the on time departure time shown for London Midland. Inevitably the train will leave late as it's arrived in late but the screens don't tell you that so passengers not in the know must only assume it's going to leave on time.

Same happens at King's Cross. A late inbound service isn't going to go straight back out (yes, drivers can swap ends very quickly but not THAT quickly) but because the screens won't update, beyond saying 'Delayed' perhaps, people will still stampede towards the train once it's announced.

Even with so many apps and sites that will give more accurate information, the bulk of passengers (including commuters) do still stand waiting by the screens and make a mad dash.