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What if the 1978 Taunton sleeper train fire hadn't happened?

AY1975

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I wonder how different things would have been if the 1978 Taunton sleeping car fire hadn't happened?

I believe that the Taunton fire led to the design specifications of the Mark 3 sleepers being modified to incorporate a sophisticated fire alarm system, which added considerably to the cost of each vehicle. I would guess that that also meant that it took longer to finalise their design than it would have done otherwise.

I suppose if it weren't for the Taunton fire, the Mark 3s would have been built without fire alarms, and might have entered service up to a year or so earlier than they did (say early 1981 instead of early 1982).

On the other hand, BR might not have been in such a hurry to phase out the Mark 1 sleepers, some of which might have lasted until say the mid to late 1980s, and they could even have lasted long enough to receive Intercity livery. They would probably still have had to be withdrawn by the deadline for getting rid of asbestos-insulated stock, though (end of 1987 as I recall).

In that scenario, I suppose the marginal sleeper services that never got Mark 3s, and that were withdrawn by the time the Mark 1s finished (e.g. Paddington-Milford Haven, King's Cross-Newcastle via Hartlepool, the Euston-Perth terminator), might have lasted a few more years than they did.

Conversely, the secondary sleeper routes that did get Mark 3s (e.g. the Glasgow/Edinburgh-Inverness "Scottish internals", Euston-Manchester/Liverpool) might have remained Mark 1 until the asbestos withdrawal deadline but might then have finished a few years earlier than they did (as I recall the Scottish internals ended in May 1990 and the Manchester/Liverpool at the end of the 1991 summer timetable).

According to the Wikipedia entry on the Night Ferry, BR considered replacing the purpose-built Night Ferry sleeping cars with Mark 1 sleepers, but I expect the Taunton fire put paid to that idea. They would presumably have needed various modifications such as fitting retractable steps for the lower platforms in France and Belgium, fitting Westinghouse brakes, and fitting gangway connections that were compatible with SNCF and SNCB domestic coaching stock (as I believe happened with the Mark 1 Brake Corridor Composites that were used on the London-Dover leg of the Night Ferry to make them compatible with the Night Ferry coaches).

That might have kept the Night Ferry going until the Channel Tunnel opened, or at least until the 1987 asbestos withdrawal deadline. Not sure what visitors from mainland Europe would have thought of the Mark 1s, though. Imagine how they'd have looked in SNCF blue! Or they might have kept them in BR blue & grey but replaced the Inter-City Sleeper branding with Night Ferry branding (and maybe a BR, SNCF and Belgian Railways "B" logo).
 
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Clarence Yard

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If Taunton hadn’t of happened, we would have seen a quicker end to the Mk1 fleet as the order wouldn’t have been curtailed and, as you say, the service introduction would have occurred much earlier than it actually did.

The state of the Mk1 sleepers by the late 1970’s was causing concern. They were well due for a refit/refurb and so the choice was either to do them up or replace. The decision was to replace and then came Taunton.

The delay in replacement had a material effect on the reliability of the Mk1 sleepers on the hardest turns and we (who were involved with maintaining them) on the ECML were very relieved to see the first Mk 3 Sleepers enter service in 1982.
 

Helvellyn

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266 Mark 3A Sleepers were originally planned to replace the Mark 1 fleet, but that was curtailed to 210, and only 208 were delivered (the last two being used to replace Mark 1 Sleepers in the Royal Train).

If the Taunton fire hadn't happened, and thus the Mark 3As weren't delayed, there would have been a greater risk the full original order was delivered with the result that so many more would have been surplus by the late 1980s. It's interesting BR went for a single order to replace the entire Mark 1 fleet and not an initial order for the core routes combined with say a refurbishment for some of the newer Mark 1s for use on the more marginal services that only had a handful of sleeping cars in the service. Given so much else was ordered in batches for specific routes (eg. HSTs) it must have been a compelling business case put forward to the Department of Transport and HM Treasury.
 
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AY1975

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266 Mark 3A Sleepers were originally planned to replace the Mark 1 fleet, but that was curtailed to 210, and only 208 were delivered (the last two being used to replace Mark 1 Sleepers in the Royal Train).

If the Taunton fire hadn't happened, and thus the Mark 3As weren't delayed, there would have been a greater risk the full original order was delivered with the result that so many more would have been surplus by the late 1980s. It's interesting BR went for a single order to replace the entire Mark 1 fleet and not an initial order for the core routes combined with say a refurbishment for some of the newer Mark 1s for use on the more marginal services that only had a handful of sleeping cars in the service. Given so much else was ordered in batches for specific routes (eg. HSTs) it must have been a compelling business case put forward to the Department of Transport and HM Treasury.
Indeed, as I recall the Mark 1 sleepers were refurbished or at least facelifted sometime in the 1970s as discussed in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/mark-1-sleeping-car-refurbishment.225374/

If BR had decided to place an initial order for Mark 3s for the core routes, I suppose they might have given the newer Mark 1s a second refurbishment in the 1980s for use on more marginal services, which would probably have involved modifications such as removing the asbestos and replacing it with a safer insulation material, replacing at least some of the tungsten interior lighting with fluorescent lighting, and maybe fitting retention tank toilets (although I believe that some Eastern Region vehicles latterly had a retention tank system of sorts anyway). They might then have lasted until, say, the early 90s.
 

norbitonflyer

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If BR had decided to place an initial order for Mark 3s for the core routes, I suppose they might have given the newer Mark 1s a second refurbishment in the 1980s for use on more marginal services, which would probably have involved modifications such as removing the asbestos , replacing at least some of the tungsten interior lighting with fluorescent lighting, and maybe fitting retention tank toilets (although I believe that some Eastern Region vehicles latterly had a retention tank system of sorts anyway). They might then have lasted until, say, the early 90s.
All that work for a life extension of less than ten years, for use on services that were aways huge lossmakers?

Asbestos removal in particular is very hazardous and thus expensive, which has caused the extinction of many dmu types that might otherwise have merited preservation.
 

Magdalia

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In that scenario, I suppose the marginal sleeper services that never got Mark 3s, and that were withdrawn by the time the Mark 1s finished (e.g. Paddington-Milford Haven, King's Cross-Newcastle via Hartlepool, the Euston-Perth terminator), might have lasted a few more years than they did.
I doubt that. By the early 1980s the market for most of the shorter distance sleeper services had been knocked out by early morning and late evening HSTs.
 

AY1975

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If Taunton hadn’t of happened, we would have seen a quicker end to the Mk1 fleet as the order wouldn’t have been curtailed and, as you say, the service introduction would have occurred much earlier than it actually did.

The state of the Mk1 sleepers by the late 1970’s was causing concern. They were well due for a refit/refurb and so the choice was either to do them up or replace. The decision was to replace and then came Taunton.

The delay in replacement had a material effect on the reliability of the Mk1 sleepers on the hardest turns and we (who were involved with maintaining them) on the ECML were very relieved to see the first Mk 3 Sleepers enter service in 1982.
At least the Mark 1s were technologically fairly simple compared to the Mark 3s (let alone the Mark 5s!) so I suppose they didn't have so many things that could go wrong. Even so, I would guess that things like the heating and hot water could still fail, and especially in the winter a lot of passengers wouldn't have been very happy about that kind of thing!
 

Davester50

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I doubt that. By the early 1980s the market for most of the shorter distance sleeper services had been knocked out by early morning and late evening HSTs.
Plus the trunk road network improved greatly. The old A9 to Glasgow from Perth single carriage way, and through villages and towns for one example. I'm unfamiliar with the Welsh road network, so I could imagine they would be similar.
Later on the MoD traffic that kept some Sleeper services ticking over began to dry up too.
 

Rescars

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At least the Mark 1s were technologically fairly simple compared to the Mark 3s (let alone the Mark 5s!) so I suppose they didn't have so many things that could go wrong. Even so, I would guess that things like the heating and hot water could still fail, and especially in the winter a lot of passengers wouldn't have been very happy about that kind of thing!
From first hand experience, it wasn't great if the belt came off the dynamo either!
 

AY1975

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From first hand experience, it wasn't great if the belt came off the dynamo either!
Which I guess would have meant no teas and coffees for passengers in any coaches that were affected in this way! Passengers who were in-the-know would be well advised to take a torch with them in case this happened before they had got washed and got into bed! It would also mean not being able to shave in the morning if you used an electric shaver that needed plugging into the mains (or if you wet shaved and the hot water relied on the power supply)!
 

Rescars

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Which I guess would have meant no teas and coffees for passengers in any coaches that were affected in this way! Passengers who were in-the-know would be well advised to take a torch with them in case this happened before they had got washed and got into bed! It would also mean not being able to shave in the morning if you used an electric shaver that needed plugging into the mains (or if you wet shaved and the hot water relied on the power supply)!
Correct on all counts! I recall being woken by having a Bardic lamp shone in my face and the conductor greeting me with: "Good morning, if you can call it that..." before listing all the things that weren't working, as you have accurately listed! I assume I did get my complimentary newspaper, but there was of course no light with which to read it.
 

AY1975

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Correct on all counts! I recall being woken by having a Bardic lamp shone in my face and the conductor greeting me with: "Good morning, if you can call it that..." before listing all the things that weren't working, as you have accurately listed! I assume I did get my complimentary newspaper, but there was of course no light with which to read it.
And no light by which to see to wash (in cold water)! Not being able to shave was obviously not good if you were travelling to attend a job interview!

I would guess that the Mark 1s' tendency to suffer from mishaps such as these may also have been part of the reason that BR decided not to recondition some of them for use on the Night Ferry as I alluded to in #1 at the start of this thread. Maybe SNCF and SNCB/NMBS got to hear of this (and of the Taunton fire) and decided that they would be unwilling to accept Mark 1 sleepers as replacements for the purpose-built Night Ferry stock for that reason. If they had used them on the Night Ferry and this type of failure had become a regular occurrence, it would have been a very poor advert for BR for French and Belgian passengers!
 

Clarence Yard

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The modifications required for that service would have been hideously expensive. That would have ruled them out at an early stage of any consideration.
 

Rescars

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And no light by which to see to wash (in cold water)! Not being able to shave was obviously not good if you were travelling to attend a job interview!
Wet shaving in a Mark 1 whilst travelling at speed called for a special grade of courage, even when the lights and hit water were in perfect working order! :)
 

AY1975

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The modifications required for that service would have been hideously expensive. That would have ruled them out at an early stage of any consideration.
Not sure how serious a proposal it was. I never knew it was even considered until I read it on Wikipedia as mentioned in #1 above.
All that work for a life extension of less than ten years, for use on services that were aways huge lossmakers?
Likewise, if they had modified a small fleet of them for the Night Ferry, they might have hoped to keep the service going until the Channel Tunnel opened, which they probably anticipated would happen sooner or later, but then would have come the asbestos withdrawal deadline and therefore an earlier than envisaged end to the service.
 

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