What is going on at the Midland Railway Centre ?

[Justin Smith]

We went to the Midland Railway Centre last week and in terms of the number of visitors there it was a bit of a depressing experience.

What is not helping numbers is the MRC seem to be working even harder to put people off using the Swanwick entrance and the footpath from Butterley is now closed. Thus all visitors have to use the train to get to Swanwick. I can see why the management think this is a good idea to maximise revenue for the MRC but it will decimate visitor numbers because apart from the fact it costs around £30 on the train for a family, all visitors are then dependent on the timing of the trains. It will put off people who just want to call in for an hour or two, having a look round, possibly going for a cheap trip on the GVLR or miniature railway and maybe grabbing a bite to eat whilst they're there.
On the Sunday we went (though it was admittedly a rainy day) we were the only people on the Golden Valley narrow gauge train, and the other GVLR trains we saw were similar. The Miniature railway was closed, as was the exhibition hall and Johnsons' buffet (which always used to be popular when we visited before Covid). It was similar story at the other museums e.g. the Stationary Power Building. The only exception was the Princess Royal Class Locomotive Trust's West Shed which seemed reasonably busy, certainly in terms of volunteers!
One or two of the members of the other (mostly empty) attractions at Swanwick seemed very demotivated. Apparently they're are all short of volunteers, but as a chap admitted to me : "we want to come down and play at trains but it's no fun if they're almost empty and there is nobody to show our pride and joy to".
I am very worried for the MRC, what is the plan ?

 

[Sm5]

I‘m sure someone more educated thannI can respond, but I understood to be a train ticket, and without VAT you need multiple stations to where you can buy tickets to and from.

But if its just a journey to / from the same point with no stations to exit from, it becomes a ride, which attracts VAT ?

Can someone clarify ?

 

[Ducatist4]

I used to regularly visit the West Shed, have something to eat, pop some money in the donations bucket etc. I'm not interested in riding on the train or looking at the rest of the scrap they have hanging around the site. And £15 for when i just want to spend half an hour there catching up (plus they usually only run four trains a day) means I no longer bother - I suspect many others feel the same way.

The train journey confuses many people - they get on at Butterley, ride maybe a mile or so to Swanwick and they assume that's it. They don't realise the train then continues on for a few miles before coming back. I've heard lots of mutterings about how people feel ripped off!

I noticed on their Facebook page when they had a recent HST event, loads of lovely pics of the train, but hardly any of them showed any visitors.

To ride the GVLR is an additional charge as well.

 

[Skymonster]

I visited a few weeks ago when the two Peaks - D4 and D182 - were top-and-tailing. There were a fair few folks around, the trains were reasonably loaded but not excessively busy (most riders seemed to be Peak followers) and the site at Swanwixk was rather quiet although the cafe was popular. Swanwick is not helped by the main exhibition building being closed due to half of the roof having gone missing, and the road transport building was rather disappointing as the doors were ajar but the inside roped off. At least the West Shed was open. I bet the whole experience is a bit gloomy when there’s nothing special going on, and I would not get excited enough to visit again if the rides were in a 141, 142 or even a heritage DMU.

I think there are probably too many preserved railways within fairly close proximity in the East Midlands - Great Central (Loughborough), Great Central Railway North (sorry, Nottingham Heritage Railway, Ruddington), Peak Rail (Matlock), Ecclesborne Valley Railway (Wirksworth / Duffield) and Midland Railway Centre (Swanwick / Butterley). One is totally in the doldrums, two seem to be a bit stagnant, and only the GCR and EVR seem to be making efforts that are delivering results at present. If you add into the mix attractions that are similar (e.g. Crich Tramway Village, admitted suffering itself at present), there are too many “railways” offering fairly similar experiences (at least as far as normals are concerned) and competing for a limited number of interested visitors with money to spend.

 

[43096]

I noticed on their Facebook page when they had a recent HST event, loads of lovely pics of the train, but hardly any of them showed any visitors.

The HST running days saw the trains well filled. Obviously that didn’t come across on the photos you saw.

 

[Justin Smith]

I visited a few weeks ago when the two Peaks - D4 and D182 - were top-and-tailing. There were a fair few folks around, the trains were reasonably loaded but not excessively busy (most riders seemed to be Peak followers) and the site at Swanwixk was rather quiet although the cafe was popular. Swanwick is not helped by the main exhibition building being closed due to half of the roof having gone missing, and the road transport building was rather disappointing as the doors were ajar but the inside roped off. At least the West Shed was open. I bet the whole experience is a bit gloomy when there’s nothing special going on, and I would not get excited enough to visit again if the rides were in a 141, 142 or even a heritage DMU.

I think there are probably too many preserved railways within fairly close proximity in the East Midlands - Great Central (Loughborough), Great Central Railway North (sorry, Nottingham Heritage Railway, Loughborough), Peak Rail (Matlock), Ecclesborne Valley Railway (Wirksworth / Duffield) and Midland Railway Centre (Swanwick / Butterley). One it totally in the doldrums, two seem to be a bit stagnant, and only the GCR and EVR seem to be making efforts that are delivering results at present. If you add into the mix attractions that are similar (e.g. Crichton Tramway Village, admitted suffering itself at present), there are too many “railways” offering fairly similar experiences (at least as far as normals are concerned) and competing for a limited number of interested visitors with money to spend.

I can believe it would be busier for a special event like the Peaks, because then most people would be going there t ride the Peaks.
They do have a Singer Car club rally on in June which we might have been interested had we not been down last week, but I would have thought most people interested in that (incl than the Singer car club themselves, who presumably get to drive into Swanwick ! ) would not be that bothered about parking just a mile or so away, then catching an hourly train at £30 for a family.

We're from NW Sheffield and there aren't actually that many easily accessible Heritage railways, as in an hour or less driving, just Middleton, Peak rail and the MRC. The EVR is nice but actually takes longer to get to from our house than you'd think.
I used to like the MRC, there was quite a bit to see, but not so much now and the catering choices are much diminished.
Did someone say the museum hall was permanently shut now because the roof is damaged ?

 

[geoffk]

A mate and I used to drive up Coach Road (off Codnor Lane) past the Golden Valley camp site and in via the back entrance of the MRC right next to Swanwick Junction station. This entrance was always open, presumably for staff and volunteers. So we got in free although we always left a donation somewhere. I've not been there since 2017.

 

[Skymonster]

Did someone say the museum hall was permanently shut now because the roof is damaged ?

Yes, the largest railway shed at Swanwick is currently closed and part of the roof is missing - evidence clearly visible to anyway walking up to the West Shed.

 

[Townsend Hook]

I’m not sure how old this Google Earth image is but it illustrates the damage to the roof quite well.

 

[Ducatist4]

The damage you can see in the google earth image is over the loco shed part of the building where they store various out of service engines awaiting overhaul plus one or two others. The main exhibition hall is the lower two bays which was intact (but leaking) at that time - it must have got worse for them to now have closed the building.

 

[Titfield]

I‘m sure someone more educated thannI can respond, but I understood to be a train ticket, and without VAT you need multiple stations to where you can buy tickets to and from.

But if its just a journey to / from the same point with no stations to exit from, it becomes a ride, which attracts VAT ?

Can someone clarify ?

I am no expert but that is exactly my understanding. To travel from A to A without the opportunity to alight at point B is a ride not a journey and thus VAT is chargeable.

For the record train travel is not VAT exempt but is zero rated.

To answer another point: there are many factors working against tourism in general at the moment (cost of fuel, increase in national living wage) but anecdotally heritage attractions seem to be suffering more than most.

One problem which I believe is an issue for heritage railways is that to the general public (and I stress that) they do seem poor value for money. The perception is that all you get is the ride which is over in (insert figure) minutes whereas a day at the seaside or a visit to Thorpe park, Alton Towers or (insert attraction) is a day visit. I know that railway enthusiasts will say but there is the display of ........, engine shed, and a shop, cafe etc etc but the general public do not seem to put a value on that.

 

[Justin Smith]

The damage you can see in the google earth image is over the loco shed part of the building where they store various out of service engines awaiting overhaul plus one or two others. The main exhibition hall is the lower two bays which was intact (but leaking) at that time - it must have got worse for them to now have closed the building.

Is that why the building was closed ? Or because they were short of volunteers to open it ?

A mate and I used to drive up Coach Road (off Codnor Lane) past the Golden Valley camp site and in via the back entrance of the MRC right next to Swanwick Junction station. This entrance was always open, presumably for staff and volunteers. So we got in free although we always left a donation somewhere. I've not been there since 2017.

We used to use that entrance. We'd only occasionally pay for the standard gauge line trip, but we'd always spend something, either at the cafe (the original larger one with a bigger range) and/or on the Golden Valley line and/or make a donation or two.
They are now getting very keen on stopping people from using that gate. It is, apparently, usually locked now with dire warnings to keep the lock's combination secret !
It's the old business conundrum, do you want to make more money from fewer customers or less money form a lot more ? Bearing in mind that site is used by a lot of other organisations, and the volunteers want to be motivated (an empty site is no motivation) I know what I think is the better course.

 

[Ducatist4]

I've never seen any volunteers manning the museum shed, its usually just open and you can wander round.

 

[P Binnersley]

What is not helping numbers is the MRC seem to be working even harder to put people off using the Swanwick entrance and the footpath from Butterley is now closed.

Looking at Google Street View, the access to Swanwick is a labelled a private road (footpath only) with "No public access to Midland Railway".

Looking at Google maps (image dated 2022) the crossing where the Butterley footpath crosses the running line at Swanwick has been removed and the footpath looks overgrown.

 

[Justin Smith]

Looking at Google Street View, the access to Swanwick is a labelled a private road (footpath only) with "No public access to Midland Railway".

Looking at Google maps (image dated 2022) the crossing where the Butterley footpath crosses the running line at Swanwick has been removed and the footpath looks overgrown.

They have always tried to put people off using the Swanwick entrance, but everyone who knows about to used it regularly, you just ignore that sign and drive on (just like Tinsley Depot, circa 1978). Now, however, it has gone up another notch, apparently it is usually locked.

The footpath from Butterly is reported as having subsided and is closed for the foreseeable future "because it'll cost tens of thousands to fix". I suggested they lay a path on the unused running line to Swanwick, but was told there were plans to use that (sometime never). I'd have thought getting the footpath to Swanwick was rather more urgent, unless, of course, they don't really want that open so everyone has to pay to go on the train ?
.
There are rumours the Princess Royal Class Locomotive Trust are trying to organise their own access road, I don't blame them.

 

[Ducatist4]

The gate at Swanwick is now always locked but yes, the road has always had signs up saying no access to the railway. Butterley station has security fencing up so there is no way in unless you go through the ticket office. The footpath and the track crossing at Swanwick have been removed. They have publicly stated (on Facebook) that the footpath won’t be replaced.

 

[Justin Smith]

The gate at Swanwick is now always locked but yes, the road has always had signs up saying no access to the railway. Butterley station has security fencing up so there is no way in unless you go through the ticket office. The footpath and the track crossing at Swanwick have been removed. They have publicly stated (on Facebook) that the footpath won’t be replaced.

Shooting themselves in the foot.....
I wonder what all the other users of the Swanwick site think of this ?
I assume they pay rent to the MRC ?

 

[EvanDMU]

I wonder if I might just put a few things straight?
Midland Railway Butterley is thankfully financially in the best state it has been for some years - and one of the reasons for this is that the opportunity for people to come on site without paying has been removed.
Since the original museum building was opened (the Kirtley) the Bus Museum, Fork Lift Truck Museum, Static Power Museum, Swanwick new station building and buffet, tin tabernacle, the gatehouse model railway and Narrow Gauge workshop have been added as has the West Shed (all these are manned by volunteers and are usually open on days when the site is running trains). As posters have said the oldest building is currently closed and will remain so until the roof can be renewed. The model railway at Butterley and the garden railway at Butterley are of course other attractions.
Recent events have included the HST launch, the Peak launch, narrow gauge gala, a steam road vehicle event, several car club meets, a commercial vehicle rally, children's events, etc. Site capacity is limited to 1,200 people and even with that number in the place still looks empty (probably because there is almost 50 acres of land). Events such as Fireworks and the Xmas trains were sold out and the 'Ripley Big Day Out' was full to capacity before lunch with people having to be turned away.
A lot of people seem to have a bee in their bonnet because they can't drive up a private road to access the site free of charge, or that they cannot use a foot path that was always private and never public (if in doubt consult the council's footpath map). They might have put a few coppers in a donation tub somewhere but like all railways the site needs more than that to survive.
In short many of the criticisms made are ill-founded and potentially driven by a desire to visit the atttraction without paying. Respectfully we would hope that customers would want to pay the admission fee (which includes the standard gauge train ride) in order that there will be an attraction for people to visit in years to come. Certainly recent visitor figures would suggest that the majority accept this view.

 

[Justin Smith]

I wonder if I might just put a few things straight?
Midland Railway Butterley is thankfully financially in the best state it has been for some years - and one of the reasons for this is that the opportunity for people to come on site without paying has been removed.
Since the original museum building was opened (the Kirtley) the Bus Museum, Fork Lift Truck Museum, Static Power Museum, Swanwick new station building and buffet, tin tabernacle, the gatehouse model railway and Narrow Gauge workshop have been added as has the West Shed (all these are manned by volunteers and are usually open on days when the site is running trains). As posters have said the oldest building is currently closed and will remain so until the roof can be renewed. The model railway at Butterley and the garden railway at Butterley are of course other attractions.
Recent events have included the HST launch, the Peak launch, narrow gauge gala, a steam road vehicle event, several car club meets, a commercial vehicle rally, children's events, etc. Site capacity is limited to 1,200 people and even with that number in the place still looks empty (probably because there is almost 50 acres of land). Events such as Fireworks and the Xmas trains were sold out and the 'Ripley Big Day Out' was full to capacity before lunch with people having to be turned away.
A lot of people seem to have a bee in their bonnet because they can't drive up a private road to access the site free of charge, or that they cannot use a foot path that was always private and never public (if in doubt consult the council's footpath map). They might have put a few coppers in a donation tub somewhere but like all railways the site needs more than that to survive.
In short many of the criticisms made are ill-founded and potentially driven by a desire to visit the attraction without paying. Respectfully we would hope that customers would want to pay the admission fee (which includes the standard gauge train ride) in order that there will be an attraction for people to visit in years to come. Certainly recent visitor figures would suggest that the majority accept this view.

If there was any danger of the MRC folding with its previous strategy then I hope you are right and I am wrong about the MRC being more successful with its new policy, though we will not be visiting as often for the reasons already stated. However, I do not understand what you mean by an admission fee. I cannot remember the Middleton Railway having an admission fee, do the GCR or Ecclesbourne Railway have one ?

Whilst you are on, will the Johnson's Buffet be reopening ? That said, if we wanted to call in there for a bite to eat and a quick look round we cannot any more.

Just out of interest, how would you get 1,200 people in on a two car DMU which runs about every hour ?

 

[EvanDMU]

However, I do not understand what you mean by an admission fee. I cannot remember the Middleton Railway having an admission fee, do the GCR or Ecclesbourne Railway have one ?

Whilst you are on, will the Johnson's Buffet be reopening ? That said, if we wanted to call in there for a bite to eat and a quick look round we cannot any more.

Just out of interest, how would you get 1,200 people in on a two car DMU which runs about every hour ?

Yes the Midland is the same as Middleton, or Crich, or Beamish, or even the Nene Valley etc where there is somewhere to pay as you enter their land (in Middleton's, the Nene Valley and MRC's case this is a railway ticket office). Locations that only offer a train ride such as the GCR or Ecclesbourne do not have a site in the same sense to charge for, but you are still expected to pay.
Johnson's buffet closed around five years ago and was replaced by the completely new Deeley's buffet in Swanwick station.
Along with most businesses the Midland matches capacity to demand, either by increasing frequency or train length. The fireworks event was worked by a five coach steam hauled train working a frequent shuttle between Butterley and Swanwick for instance while events such as 'Ripley's Big Day Out' are supplied by DMUs (sometimes in multiple) working shuttles . Two-train running is also used at gala events.
Hope this helps.

 

[mjc]

I can believe it would be busier for a special event like the Peaks, because then most people would be going there t ride the Peaks.
They do have a Singer Car club rally on in June which we might have been interested had we not been down last week, but I would have thought most people interested in that (incl than the Singer car club themselves, who presumably get to drive into Swanwick ! ) would not be that bothered about parking just a mile or so away, then catching an hourly train at £30 for a family.

We're from NW Sheffield and there aren't actually that many easily accessible Heritage railways, as in an hour or less driving, just Middleton, Peak rail and the MRC.

It’s slightly over your hour cut-off (depending on where you’re starting from in Sheffield) but Churnet Valley isn’t much beyond the hour, is a lovely journey through Buxton and/or Bakewell and we’ll worth a day out. (No commission for me, just one of my local lines)

Fork Lift Truck Museum,

There’s a Fork lift truck museum? Glad I came back to this thread! Grew up around them, dad was an electric vehicle engineer before they were sexy, just forklifts and milk floats. Would love a walk down memory lane! Will look it up!