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What should be done with Heathrow Express once Old Oak Common opens? And how could the paths be best used?

Discuss223

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The Capital's largest airport really ought to remain on the National Rail network. It seems like they take a very customer focussed approach with their ticket touting at the station. First Class seems lacklustre, with having no catering, that's something they could improve. It's a shame that the line is angled so it can only path services to and from Paddington (without a reverse or vast diversion). GWR could do more to advertise the service as a connection from Paddington.
 
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Topological

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Does anyone have estimated OOC to Heathrow times for the various modes? I would expect Heathrow Express will cling on for that market.
 

sigma421

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If the Hex was to be discontinued, what would happen to the paths on the fast lines that they use? My understanding is that it's not possible to go from the Elizabeth Line tunnel to the fast tracks, so it's not like they could simply be replaced by extending some of the EL Paddington terminators. If not that, then what?
 

fandroid

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I wonder what future Old Oak Common holds for HEx. Presumably the mainline platforms will be ready before the HS station is. If GW mainline trains stop there as "OOC for Heathrow Airport" then HEx could pick up a reasonable market if they did an Advance Fare deal for passengers from The West and Wales.
 

Snow1964

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Does anyone have estimated OOC to Heathrow times for the various modes? I would expect Heathrow Express will cling on for that market.
It would be a slightly faster change than Paddington to/from Elizabeth line, effectively up to footbridge, walk to third island platform and down.

Obviously leaving Heathrow, if a train from OOC is only hourly, then for many the 10 minutes slower Elizabeth line (with its platforms slightly nearer the low level high speed ones) isn't really going to make much difference, especially if got longish wait at OOC. In practice if you are standing on the platform at Heathrow T2&3 probably going to take whichever comes first as they generally alternate.

It might be academic, as from memory Heathrow Express doesn't currently have track access agreement beyond about 2028, and OOC isn't likely to be served by GWR long distance trains until at least 2028, and HS2 until at least 2028
 

Topological

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It would be a slightly faster change than Paddington to/from Elizabeth line, effectively up to footbridge, walk to third island platform and down.

Obviously leaving Heathrow, if a train from OOC is only hourly, then for many the 10 minutes slower Elizabeth line (with its platforms slightly nearer the low level high speed ones) isn't really going to make much difference, especially if got longish wait at OOC. In practice if you are standing on the platform at Heathrow T2&3 probably going to take whichever comes first as they generally alternate.

It might be academic, as from memory Heathrow Express doesn't currently have track access agreement beyond about 2028, and OOC isn't likely to be served by GWR long distance trains until at least 2028, and HS2 until at least 2028
A related thought is whether the paths for HEX still exist when everything is stopping at OOC.

There are likely to be many changing from HS2 to Heathrow at OOC.

The advantage for EL is that if the HEX comes first you can take the HEX to OOC and switch over to an OOC starting EL train. It would be interesting to see how many would do so. Given HS2 modelling assumes empty EL trains at OOC for HS2 passengers, more passengers coming from Heathrow might mess the figures up slightly.

As you note without a track access agreement there is no HEX to take.
 

Meole

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Is there an argument for reducing the Crossrail service to assist the sustainability of the ailing H Ex ?
 

John R

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Is there an argument for reducing the Crossrail service to assist the sustainability of the ailing H Ex ?
Why on earth would you do that? Reduce travel options for thousands of airport workers and passengers and overloading already popular trains simply to try and prop up an expensive service that is in steady decline?
 

Taunton

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Why on earth would you do that? Reduce travel options for thousands of airport workers and passengers and overloading already popular trains simply to try and prop up an expensive service that is in steady decline?
Sounds a perfect Socialist business plan. I will recommend it to the Prime Minister straight away.
 

signed

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Tea, coffee, water, biscuits & a newspaper. The little touches go along way in terms of customer feedback.
Yeah, no, makes little sense.

You'll not get people to pay £40 by providing tea and coffee

Just get the Paddington luggage check-in back for 1st class passengers, that could be a killer feature
 

philosopher

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What catering would you do on a 15min ride? Tea, coffee maybe
Realistically, the only catering they could provide is a bottle or water and perhaps a snack bar which the passenger could then take with them.
 

skyhigh

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Realistically, the only catering they could provide is a bottle or water and perhaps a snack bar which the passenger could then take with them.
Which would be a complete waste if travelling in the airport direction as pretty much everybody will go straight through security, so won't be able to keep liquids anyway (unless they hand out 100ml bottles of water...)
 

MontyP

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Lastly, wouldn’t the HEX have a better chance of long term survival if it was extended into Central London through the Crossrail tunnels to say, Liverpool Street with a set down/pick up interim stop at Tottenham Court Road?
How would that work? The fast lines into Paddington (which HEX services use) aren't directly connected to the Cross rail tunnels. How would you fit a limited stop service in amongst the very frequent all-stations services? And how would you terminate/turn round a service in the tunnel at Liverpool St? Crossrail just isn't built for that sort of service.
 

cactustwirly

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If the Hex was to be discontinued, what would happen to the paths on the fast lines that they use? My understanding is that it's not possible to go from the Elizabeth Line tunnel to the fast tracks, so it's not like they could simply be replaced by extending some of the EL Paddington terminators. If not that, then what?
Not a lot, I guess you could run an extra GWR semi fast to Reading, crossing to the reliefs at Airport Junction, but you'd have to cut EL services to accommodate.
 

Helvellyn

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Just get the Paddington luggage check-in back for 1st class passengers, that could be a killer feature.
Unfortunately the space has long gone for retail so wouldn't be given back up easily. But I agree, a luggage drop at Paddington (and Victoria) would be something BA could tout to its premium passengers. But it won't happen for another reason - the 387s don't have luggage van space that the 332s and 460s had. I can’t see DfT signing off on creating a subfleet with such van space either.
 

MontyP

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Unfortunately the space has long gone for retail so wouldn't be given back up easily. But I agree, a luggage drop at Paddington (and Victoria) would be something BA could tout to its premium passengers. But it won't happen for another reason - the 387s don't have luggage van space that the 332s and 460s had. I can’t see DfT signing off on creating a subfleet with such van space either.
Surely the security concerns would prevent this anyway? I think security post-9/11 was the reason that the Paddington check-in closed
 

signed

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Surely the security concerns would prevent this anyway? I think security post-9/11 was the reason that the Paddington check-in closed
No, it's done for Rail&Air from Brussels to Paris CDG, where you checkin for your Air France flight at a dedicated terminal at Brussels Midi and you don't see your bag until your destination's bag drop.

As long as you have an X-Ray machine at Paddington and the bag owner travels on the same train (and even then it's not that cut and dry, bag travel without their owners all the time, I think the rule in aviation is that the owner has to travel themselves and if the bag gets lost then it's fine to send the bag on another plane) it's possible and done.


creating a subfleet with such van space either.
Surely, with the declining usage you could just remove the seats on one of the end standard class carriages

The TGVs used for Rail&Air aren't any different to regular TGV Réseau sets. The main difference between TGVR and 387s is the fact that one is a loco, which could have a hold space, and the other a unit indeed.
 
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RailWonderer

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GWR would be made to stop every service at OOC. It makes no sense to stop 5 hour Penzance, 3 hour Hereford services at a place 10 minutes from Paddington. HEx could simply path behind the GWR fasts.
Surely, with the declining usage you could just remove the seats on one of the end standard class carriages

The TGVs used for TGV Air aren't any different to regular TGV Réseau sets. The main difference between TGVR and 387s is the fact that one is a loco and the other a unit indeed.
The 387s are rarely more than half full so this would be fine and if Heathrow wanted to they could buy the space back and easily move retail elsewhere. There's a brand new arcade just outside Paddington for shops anyway. This would be a huge benefit but I'd like to see it for standard class passengers as well.
 

Topological

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Presumably, the gangway between the two 387s is needed for the tunnels? Otherwise, could a suitable wagon be inserted between the two units for luggage?

I am sure I will not be the only one who will be happy to have a 15-minute saving on the journey to Heathrow when OOC opens though.
 

Mgameing123

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If the Hex was to be discontinued, what would happen to the paths on the fast lines that they use? My understanding is that it's not possible to go from the Elizabeth Line tunnel to the fast tracks, so it's not like they could simply be replaced by extending some of the EL Paddington terminators. If not that, then what?
It is possible but you would have to traverse a flat junction.

GWR would be made to stop every service at OOC. It makes no sense to stop 5 hour Penzance, 3 hour Hereford services at a place 10 minutes from Paddington. HEx could simply path behind the GWR fasts.

The 387s are rarely more than half full so this would be fine and if Heathrow wanted to they could buy the space back and easily move retail elsewhere. There's a brand new arcade just outside Paddington for shops anyway. This would be a huge benefit but I'd like to see it for standard class passengers as well.
Of course it makes sense to stop every Intercity train in London’s newest suburban hub. With a connection to the Overground, Central Line, Chiltern Line, HS2, GWML, Heathrow Airport, Elizabeth Line, Southern East Croydon service and local buses it would make loads of sense to stop all GWR services here
 

signed

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Otherwise, could a suitable wagon be inserted between the two units for luggage?
Surely that's not worth the software changes, let alone the wagon costs, that would be needed. And I don't think the main platforms at Heathrow (at least Central) are long enough for more than a 2x387 or 1x345.
 

Mgameing123

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Surely that's not worth the software changes that would be needed. And I don't think the main platforms at Heathrow (at least Central) are long enough for more than a 2x387 or 1x345.
A 345 carriage is longer than a 387 carriage so I’m pretty sure that you can fit a 10 car 387 in Heathrow.
 

Tom

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First Class seems lacklustre, with having no catering, that's something they could improve.
I get first class for free on HEx by rights of my BA frequent flyer status and honestly the main advantage is the space and quiet particularly on the very busy Heathrow rush hour trains. Most of the time it's a complete waste of time and space. Once you get out of the Heathrow area it's only 15 minutes which is enough to do a quick review of emails and that's about it.
 

SynthD

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If the path is used for a fast GWR train, then it needs the previous path adjusted. This previous path uses Dolphin Junction to become semi-fast from Slough on the relief line. If that junction wasn't flat, would it permit a fast train behind it? Maybe HX could continue until that work is done, as the path has no other use. Or leave it empty as a recovery slot. I want to know more about what it could do for air passengers heading north. Do people who are considering a connecting flight from Heathrow to the midlands or further prefer HX to OOC for HS2, or will EL be equally satisfactory?

 

Chester1

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How about diverting some Chiltern services into Paddington via Old Oak Common? HS2 is required to restore the link it severed to build OOC and the New North Mainline should be able to support 2tph with renewal works. That would provide many people with better links to Heathrow and HS2.
 

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