Wheelchair lifts on coaches - front versus central door

[markymark2000]

Mod note: posts 1-3 have been moved from this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/trentbarton-discussion.268549/

The thread was discussing the use of a Yutong coach demonstrator and the fact that it has a side lift rather than one built into the front entrance.

If they opt with Pelican for a new Red Arrow fleet, the service will have to be moved up to the coach bays in Derby Bus Station and it simply couldn't operate out of Victoria Bus Station (I know there may be plans to close Victoria Bus Station anyway). A middle wheelchair lift is awful and really doesn't work with UK infrastructure. Drive on, reverse off bus stations and our general bus stop infrastructure just doesn't suit it.

I don't get why more manufacturers aren't building lifts into the front door like Elites and Caetanos. Seems like adding wheelchair lifts is now a tickbox rather than thinking of the practicalities of using it.

 

[43055]

If they opt with Pellican for a new Red Arrow fleet, the service will have to be moved up to the coach bays in Derby Bus Station and it simply couldn't operate out of Victoria Bus Station (I know there may be plans to close Victoria Bus Station anyway). A middle wheelchair lift is awful and really doesn't work with UK infrastructure. Drive on, reverse off bus stations and our general bus stop infrastructure just doesn't suit it.

There is a larger gap between bays 4 and 5 (red arrow bay) at Derby bus station so it probably won't be an issue.

 

[markymark2000]

There is a larger gap between bays 4 and 5 (red arrow bay) at Derby bus station so it probably won't be an issue.

It's not safe to be unloading a wheelchair into the middle of a bus apron. The larger gap is meant to assist the coaches in swinging into the stand (and maybe to provide a slightly safer place for drivers to get luggage from the lockers), it is not meant as space for wheelchairs offloading. Wheelchair lifts come out by around 1.5-2 metres. Plus you need space for the user to manoeuvre on/off the ramp. If that somehow passed the risk assessment, there is also no dropped kerb to get a wheelchair and it's user between the stand and the ramp meaning any wheelchair user is going to have to travel along the bus apron behind possibly 4 buses to get to the coach. Not acceptable under any circumstances. It's discrimination and should have been thought about sooner.

 

[bringiton]

If they opt with Pelican for a new Red Arrow fleet, the service will have to be moved up to the coach bays in Derby Bus Station and it simply couldn't operate out of Victoria Bus Station (I know there may be plans to close Victoria Bus Station anyway). A middle wheelchair lift is awful and really doesn't work with UK infrastructure. Drive on, reverse off bus stations and our general bus stop infrastructure just doesn't suit it.

It's just like the old Scania coaches they had and are returning. I think they would operate from bay 5, then go to the coach bay if needed to pick up a disabled passenger (which they already do with the plaxtons with front wheelchair lifts). I don't really know what would happen for Victoria bus Station but they would have something planned if they got them.

 

[markymark2000]

It's just like the old Scania coaches they had and are returning. I think they would operate from bay 5, then go to the coach bay if needed to pick up a disabled passenger (which they already do with the plaxtons with front wheelchair lifts). I don't really know what would happen for Victoria bus Station but they would have something planned if they got them.

Not a great situation though. Delaying everyone on the coach by 10 minutes while they move to another stand to board a wheelchair user. Very offputting for a wheelchair user knowing that they are inconveniencing everyone else.

I'll be honest, when I originally wrote the post, I thought the Elites would manage with a wheelchair on the bay if parked quite precisely.

 

[bringiton]

I'll be honest, when I originally wrote the post, I thought the Elites would manage with a wheelchair on the bay if parked quite precisely.

Thats the thing. It would be hard for the driver to know that a wheelchair might need to get on before getting into the bay. Sometimes the parking isn't the best. I definitely think Victoria bus station would be less ideal since there isn't the part outside where you walk onto the bus, its just straight on from the building.

When I have been with a wheelchair passenger on board the driver kicked everyone off just after parliament street at the university stop. I assume since there is lots more space to maneuver off. Maybe wheel chair users opt for a non coach service like i4 or indigo which take a slower way into derby or risk that a non coach will be put on the service and that trentbarton just have the wheel chair space on the coaches to ensure the vehicles are service worthy

 

[markymark2000]

Maybe wheel chair users opt for a non coach service like i4 or indigo which take a slower way into derby or risk that a non coach will be put on the service and that trentbarton just have the wheel chair space on the coaches to ensure the vehicles are service worthy

The coaches on Red Arrow legally have to be accessible. It comes under PSVAR rules (Public Service Vehicle Accessibility Regulations) which has various rules around accommodating wheelchairs and disabled people and that there must not be any discrimination. Refusing a wheelchair passenger at Victoria Bus Station because you couldn't safely board/alight them, would be discrimination and open them up to a lot of disability discrimination claims. Arguably boarding/alighting any wheelchair user via the lift in an unsafe way (such as in the middle of a bus apron) would also open up potentially court cases on safety grounds.

Wheelchair users should not 'opt for a non coach service'. They are legally entitled to get on the Red Arrow, or any scheduled coach service, the same as everyone else. Operators must start to accommodate this and get vehicles which are appropriate for the infrastructure that they are working with. That includes bus stations and even normal roadside bus stops. Trent are by no means alone here, Flixbus has had issues in Cardiff with their poor stop choice meaning they couldn't deploy middle wheelchair lifts. Arriva Midlands got their X6 moved over to the coach bays which I believe was due to them not being able to deploy a wheelchair lift at Pool Meadow Stop It's something that as an industry, needs correcting and until such time that infrastructure works for middle lifts, the vehicles simply shouldn't be put out in normal service. Trent Barton, as a supposedly high quality operator, should be placing this as a higher priority in my opinion.

 

[GusB]

The location of wheelchair lifts is definitely an issue that manufacturers such as Yutong will need to address if they want to make inroads into the express and interurban markets. My local bus station is drive in, reverse out and there is only realistically once stance that can be used for coaches with centre doors; even then it would require removal of some railings to allow access. It's just not practical with the number of services that employ coaches.

 

[markymark2000]

The location of wheelchair lifts is definitely an issue that manufacturers such as Yutong will need to address if they want to make inroads into the express and interurban markets.

Do other European countries have such laws regarding accessibility and essentially offering turn up and go (no notice needed) for those with disabilities? If so, is their infrastructure better or are they facing the same issues? I am wondering if we are getting

Sadly, due to lack of viable alternative (VanHool and Caetano being the only ones who do/did front lifts. No one is buying Levantes new and VanHool I think we are awaiting to see what VDL do), the industry is now flooded with mid and rear lift coaches and no one seems to care about the fact the infrastructure doesn't work. That includes council. Cardiff Council refusing to let Flixbus move stops when it was eventually discovered that you couldn't deploy a lift at the stop. We've gone from a time of wheelchair access on coaches being a selling point for some services, to now it being a tick box and no one thinks of the practicalities. Bar Scotland, mo

National Express is the one and only firm caring about accessibility from what I have seen (Front wheelchair lifts and their website flags up accessible stops when you are searching for a journey).

My local bus station is drive in, reverse out and there is only realistically once stance that can be used for coaches with centre doors; even then it would require removal of some railings to allow access. It's just not practical with the number of services that employ coaches.

Thankfully when Chester Bus Station was rebuilt, they thought about mid lifts and so on the coach stand, there is a gate there which can be opened for a mid lift to be deployed but that depends if the mid lift is in the same place. Rear lift you have no chance though (you'd have to go and take up one of the outside stands which are often full of buses) and for the front axle lift on Tourliners you would have to reverse back which could make it difficult for other buses to pull into the bus station. Without large drive on, drive off stands with street furniture quite far away from the edge of the pavement, not many places will be able to accommodate all of the wheelchair lift types and positions.