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Keir Starmer and the Labour Party

DarloRich

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I’m not disputing that, Johnson is utterly useless but replacing him with Starmer won’t save this country either,
I would take a sensible, mature, adult over the clowns we have now!
I do wonder if the majority of the UK population are aware of this, or ever will be.
They aren't and they wont until they or someone they know is involved in a court case. BTW People have no idea how easy it is for them to interact with the criminal justice system or how close they are to it. What they find and hoe they are treated will shock them.

Posters here show that ignorance time and again. They don't have to consider what will happen because they are decent chaps and wouldn't do anything wrong. Clueless.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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Just read the text of the speech (a lot quicker than watching it :lol: ). Definitely some improvements compared to the Corbyn era, not really enough to get me to look seriously at Labour again though.

To my mind:
The good bits: The focuses on crime and on technology, and the mention of putting more emphasis in the NHS on preventative care. Hinting that Tony Blair's Government might have actually (*gasp*) done some good things we can be proud of. And actually talking positively (if a bit vaguely) about patriotism.
The bad bits: Bringing up the usual false nonsense about the Tories being responsible for culture wars. Which is pretty ironic given it's only a couple of days ago that Keir Starmer himself was recorded in an interview basically saying words to the effect that you shouldn't call women women. Complaining about the recent NI increase without offering any idea of how else you can raise the money.
The missing bits: Almost nothing about how in Government he might achieve any of this vision. Nothing about how any of his promises might be paid for, apart from some vague comments about making taxation fair (which sounds great in principle - the trouble is, in the Labour Party, that's usually a code for, we'll find someone else we can get to pay for it all). On the plus side, at least there wasn't any of the overt anti-business, them-and-us language of the Corbyn era.

I think though the thing that really killed it for me is the sense that it was all about how the Government can spoon-feed us all into prosperity: There didn't seem to be any understanding that a better society also requires us as individuals to take responsibility for our own lives, rather than just expecting the Government to do everything. To me that's still the fundamental failing of Labour and the left in general, which Keir Starmer doesn't seem to be interested in addressing.
 

brad465

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I think though the thing that really killed it for me is the sense that it was all about how the Government can spoon-feed us all into prosperity: There didn't seem to be any understanding that a better society also requires us as individuals to take responsibility for our own lives, rather than just expecting the Government to do everything. To me that's still the fundamental failing of Labour and the left in general, which Keir Starmer doesn't seem to be interested in addressing.
Yes the Government shouldn't be spoon-feeding the population, but they should be investing heavily in education, not just in improving standards but also in what we teach, so that the population can take responsibility for themselves. I've repeatedly advocated education in critical thinking to help achieve this, but the problem is a relatively stupid population is what our economy needs to survive; if we're intelligent and can take responsibility for ourselves we wouldn't be buying pointless stuff all the time that are thrown in our faces through advertising and other marketing tricks. This is the same concept causing all the petrol panic buying.

Labour have announced efforts to try and improve education, but the critical thinking part is still lacking (then again, if they announce it before an election the media will go nuts trying to stop it as their sensationalist sales would collapse in a population educated in critical thinking).
 

NorthKent1989

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Who would you prefer?

Neither, both Johnson and Starmer are utterly useless, neither are getting my vote, both are elitist, both want vaccine passports (off topic I know), I’d sooner have the Lib Dem’s at least Ed Davey has shown some variety.
 

XAM2175

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Which is pretty ironic given it's only a couple of days ago that Keir Starmer himself was recorded in an interview basically saying words to the effect that you shouldn't call women women.
He said that it's wrong to make the statement that "only women have cervixes", which is quite some distance away from what you're describing.
 

DarloRich

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Neither, both Johnson and Starmer are utterly useless, neither are getting my vote, both are elitist, both want vaccine passports (off topic I know), I’d sooner have the Lib Dem’s at least Ed Davey has shown some variety.


There is the real issue. Covid crackpottery.
 

brad465

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Neither, both Johnson and Starmer are utterly useless, neither are getting my vote, both are elitist, both want vaccine passports (off topic I know), I’d sooner have the Lib Dem’s at least Ed Davey has shown some variety.
There is the real issue. Covid crackpottery.
Mainstream political and media failures for years have contributed to this, in combination with a financial crisis that was not responded to properly (i.e. a k-shape recovery).

The media have become all about spectacle, not substance, so politicians are not held to account for their actions, especially if the politicians do things that favour the wealth of the subject media outlets. The spectacle aspect also allows politicians who can present an interesting personality that sells (e.g. Trump, Johnson and Farage), leading them to gain popularity among voters, even if their capabilities as a politician as next to nothing.

The role 2008 played includes the increasing inequality and feeling politicians are out of touch elites who haven't worked for them. Populist politicians saw this opportunity and were able to seize it with help from the above points about media behaviour. In the case of Labour, they of course had the extremes on the left emerge, which didn't sell as well as the extremes on the right (UKIP/extreme Tory Brexit), so the party has struggled there. It's also of course had troubles shaking off blame for the financial crisis as they were in Government at the time, even though corporate dodgy bankers around the world were responsible for what was a global crisis.
 

gg1

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Neither, both Johnson and Starmer are utterly useless, neither are getting my vote, both are elitist, both want vaccine passports (off topic I know),
They're reflecting public opinion. This Yougov poll for example suggest 60% support a vaccine passport compared to 32% oppose, with levels of support amongst the over 50s (ie those most likely to vote) rising to 70% support vs 24% oppose.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...ns-still-broadly-support-covid-19-vaccine-pas
 

NorthKent1989

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They're reflecting public opinion. This Yougov poll for example suggest 60% support a vaccine passport compared to 32% oppose, with levels of support amongst the over 50s (ie those most likely to vote) rising to 70% support vs 24% oppose.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...ns-still-broadly-support-covid-19-vaccine-pas

Polls aren’t reliable, they don’t represent the nation, vaccine passports are pointless anyway they don’t stop the spread, there’s no health benefits to them and we have been living with Covid restriction free for the last three months and it hasn’t been the end of the world but as I said it’s off topic but while Labour and the Tories want such discriminatory measures they’ll never get my vote
 

edwin_m

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Polls aren’t reliable, they don’t represent the nation, vaccine passports are pointless anyway they don’t stop the spread, there’s no health benefits to them and we have been living with Covid restriction free for the last three months and it hasn’t been the end of the world but as I said it’s off topic but while Labour and the Tories want such discriminatory measures they’ll never get my vote
With respect, one person on a forum is likely to be a much less reliable barometer of opinion than a public opinion poll, and this particular forum is something of a filter bubble on the topic. It's pretty consistent that public opinion has been more in favour of restrictions than the current policy in England.
 

gg1

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With respect, one person on a forum is likely to be a much less reliable barometer of opinion than a public opinion poll, and this particular forum is something of a filter bubble on the topic. It's pretty consistent that public opinion has been more in favour of restrictions than the current policy in England.
Indeed.

I post or regularly lurk on 11 different forums, this is the only one where there seems to be a strong consensus against lockdown and post lockdown Covid restrictions, the others range from a fairly even split of opinions to strongly pro.
 

NorthKent1989

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With respect, one person on a forum is likely to be a much less reliable barometer of opinion than a public opinion poll, and this particular forum is something of a filter bubble on the topic. It's pretty consistent that public opinion has been more in favour of restrictions than the current policy in England.

Doesn’t help that the media and politicians have scared everyone to death though like they don’t have a vested interest
 

Butts

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Despite all the fuss created by people not being able to afford to self-isolate during the Pandemic, no mention of raising the level of SSP to at least the minimum wage.
 

edwin_m

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Doesn’t help that the media and politicians have scared everyone to death though like they don’t have a vested interest
That's another opinion with no reason given. I don't see why either has a vested interest in hurting the economy and suppressing public activity.
Indeed.

I post or regularly lurk on 11 different forums, this is the only one where there seems to be a strong consensus against lockdown and post lockdown Covid restrictions, the others range from a fairly even split of opinions to strongly pro.
I for one disagree with the "concensus", but don't normally post in Covid-related threads, as everyone's mind there seems already made up.
 

MattRat

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I post or regularly lurk on 11 different forums, this is the only one where there seems to be a strong consensus against lockdown and post lockdown Covid restrictions, the others range from a fairly even split of opinions to strongly pro.
I presume those people also hate the Conservative government, becuase they can't see the Irony of wanting to rebel against the government, yet also following the government's orders. At least be consistent with your beliefs, becuase I could at least respect that.
 

gg1

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I presume those people also hate the Conservative government, becuase they can't see the Irony of wanting to rebel against the government, yet also following the government's orders. At least be consistent with your beliefs, becuase I could at least respect that.

What on earth are you talking about? How and where am I being inconsistent in my beliefs?
 

yorksrob

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"My dad was a toolmaker, and in a way so was Boris Johnson’s" :lol:

(Yes, Starmer actually said that this afternoon)

In the same vein as "I'm the thirteenth Mr Wilson" :lol:

They do seem to be coming up with some policies worth considering, fair play !

If they can break the Tory habit of selling everything off, which New Labour seemed to excel in, I could be tempted back.
 

gg1

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I meant the people on those other forums.

Okay.

Not totally clear what you're getting at but if I'm understanding your post correctly, you've assumed that people who support any further Covid restrictions are on the left to far left (the lines about hating the Tories and rebelling against the government) which is utter nonsense. The Yougov poll on vaccine passports mentioned in an earlier post also provides a breakdown by voting intention, the % support figure is virtually the same for both Labour and Conservative voters. Furthermore the membership of this forum (at least based on those who have expressed politcal views) does seem to be very much centrist with more of a leaning to centre left than right, yet is the most strongly anti restrictions.
 

MattRat

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If all that current Labour has is to offer is to continue selling everything, then i think they'll lose as well.
But the criteria shouldn't be just that. It should be doing something that hasn't been tried before. A third way, whatever that would be.
 

yorksrob

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But the criteria shouldn't be just that. It should be doing something that hasn't been tried before. A third way, whatever that would be.

Yes, there need to be new interventions in the economy as well. The proposal to restrict purchasing of new homes by speculators is an example of this which is long overdue.
 

brad465

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The Mail on Sunday had a report claiming 3 Labour MPs are/were considering defecting to the Tories over dissatisfaction over Starmer's leadership. This has been suspected as being nonsense/a dead cat, especially given the timing on the morning of the Tory party conference and a need of a distraction from the shortages going on.

While Starmer isn't riding high at the moment, I don't see how recent news from him would cause 3 defections that way; if he was staying aligned with Corbyn it would make more sense, but even under Corbyn the furthest someone defected from Labour to was into Change UK.
 

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