Which city in the UK is most likely to get a Tram/Light Rail system next?

[Metro95]

Which city in the UK is most likely to get a Tram/Light Rail system next? (Apart from Cardiff and Coventry which already have systems under construction.)

 

[Chris M]

Well based on past performance it certainly wont be Leeds, despite being in clear need of one.

 

[islandmonkey]

Well based on past performance it certainly wont be Leeds, despite being in clear need of one.

It grinds my gears to see endless obsessions about extending the Borders Railway, getting Okehampton to Bere Alston back up and running, 'should Oxford have a tramway', random obsessions about reopening lines in Wales that will lose money from day 1, when there's such a big elephant in the room like this.

 

[P Binnersley]

Which city in the UK is most likely to get a Tram/Light Rail system next? (Apart from Cardiff and Coventry which already have systems under construction.)

Coventry is not under construction. There is c20m of track at a Council Depot for wear testing.

The first route is supposed to run from the City Centre to the Hospital at Walsgrave; but there has been no consultation on the route yet so don't hold your breath.

 

[J-2739]

It has to be Leeds. Come on.

 

[route101]

Glasgow with the Clyde Metro, then again I think this will end up being only branding.

 

[Gostav]

Coventry is not under construction. There is c20m of track at a Council Depot for wear testing.

The first route is supposed to run from the City Centre to the Hospital at Walsgrave; but there has been no consultation on the route yet so don't hold your breath.

But isn't there a project called "Coventry Very Light Rail"?

 

[MattRat]

Maybe with the success of Eurovision in Liverpool, boosting tourism, they'll finally build some trams for Liverpool.

 

[childwallblues]

Liverpool had a tramway planned with Route 1 from the City Centre to Kirkby back in 2009 but the Labour Minister at the time, Alistair Darling withdrew the funding.

 

[daodao]

Extension under construction in Edinburgh, and a small street section for tram-trains in Cardiff with ideas of going further, both as discussed on other threads. I don't believe there an any other light rail extensions anywhere near the construction stage.

In the UK, extensions in the West Midlands are being built:

• to Wolverhampton station - almost ready to open
• to Digbeth
• to Dudley and possibly Brierley Hill, subject to additional funding

The UK is now too impoverished to build any further light rail systems de novo. Leeds and Liverpool can dream on - Liverpool at least has Merseyrail.

 

[Blindtraveler]

With electric bus technology now being what it is, do we actually need Street running trams in areas that have not already got them? I mean you can divert an electric bus in three minutes, you'd be lucky to get a diversion to a tram route up and running in three years and the emissions etc from building tram and light rail systems in the first place for this implementation will surely take far longer to compensate for then the emissions required to build and operate a fleet of electric double deckers? I suspect the next generation of urban transport will be more about finding streets that they can make buses and taxis only in order to ease congestion and smooth traffic flow

 

[J-2739]

With electric bus technology now being what it is, do we actually need Street running trams in areas that have not already got them? I mean you can divert an electric bus in three minutes, you'd be lucky to get a diversion to a tram route up and running in three years and the emissions etc from building tram and light rail systems in the first place for this implementation will surely take far longer to compensate for then the emissions required to build and operate a fleet of electric double deckers? I suspect the next generation of urban transport will be more about finding streets that they can make buses and taxis only in order to ease congestion and smooth traffic flow

An electric bus is still a bus. It will still have all the disadvantages of a bus. Slow (even with segregated lanes, it still has to use other, congested roads), rough-riding, and low capacity. They can be easily be withdrawn without much notice or controversy, like what is happening across the UK.

Even the diddy M5000s in Manchester can carry almost twice the number of passengers you can fit in a double decker bus, and they can be coupled.

Buses obviously have their place, but should not be used as a panacea in high volume corridor which a light rail could serve better.

 

[tbtc]

It’s easy to point to Leeds as a large place without Light Rail that therefore “deserves” a network

But look at the places that did qualify and the circumstances that they had:

Existing (but run down) local branch lines ripe to be converted to frequent trams (e.g. Manchester to Bury/ Rochdale via Oldham/ Altrincham… Croydon to Wimbledon)

Disused former railway alignments (e.g. Wolverhampton to Birmingham, the Edinburgh proposals were previously involving conversion of old railway alignment to Granton etc)

Lightly used heavy rail routes where some of the land can accommodate trams instead, even if it means squeezing the existing route down to single track (e.g. Attercliffe to Tinsley in Sheffield, Hucknall to Wilkinson Street in Nottingham - Edinburgh managed this without cutting capacity on existing lines, but still the presence of a railway-owned corridor west of Haymarket made it much easier/ cheaper to build a tram route)

Multiple “central” stations, where a frequent line between them would improve local connections (East Croydon to West Croydon, the triangle between Oic/Vic/ Deansgate in Manchester)

Poorly located “central” stations that make rail travel unattractive, but where a frequent tram into the heart of the city can make trains much more attractive (e.g. Sheffield, Nottingham)

None of those seem to really apply to Leeds, which hasn’t got the redundant Railway corridors crying out to be converted… Leeds doesn’t have its train services split between multiple stations… Leeds has one of the best located stations to serve a city centre so no need for typical passengers to require a connecting tram service…

…in short there’s no obviously easy/ urgent routes to target in Leeds, other than just directly copying existing bus services on existing roads but that’s going to be years of disruption to deliver a tram that’s stuck in the same traffic (there doesn’t seem much scope for segregated travel on a corridor like Headingley)

Good luck to any campaigns, I’m not saying that we mustn’t build a Leeds tram, but it’ll need more impetus to justify it than naked population stats - there are reasons why it’s not been a national priority

 

[Metro95]

In the UK, extensions in the West Midlands are being built:

• to Wolverhampton station - almost ready to open
• to Digbeth
• to Dudley and possibly Brierley Hill, subject to additional funding

The UK is now too impoverished to build any further light rail systems de novo. Leeds and Liverpool can dream on - Liverpool at least has Merseyrail.

I meant brand new Tram/Light Rail systems, not extensions to existing Tram/Light Rail systems.

 

[thelongestroad]

Nowhere. They will talk about it for 20 years, waste millions on surveys and consultations and decide not to bother.

 

[PTR 444]

Is the Cardiff (South Wales) Metro strictly a light rail system? From what I’ve heard, it will just be a tiny stretch of street running south of Cardiff Bay with tram-trains running the rest of the route on heavy rail.

 

[D6130]

None of those seem to really apply to Leeds, which hasn’t got the redundant Railway corridors crying out to be converted… Leeds doesn’t have its train services split between multiple stations… Leeds has one of the best located stations to serve a city centre so no need for typical passengers to require a connecting tram service…

Leeds does however have three former tramway corridors in the central reservations of major roads radiating from the city centre. These are currently used as guided busways, but would much better suit the green agenda if they were to be used as tramways again....although it may even be possible to combine the two modes.

 

[snowball]

But isn't there a project called "Coventry Very Light Rail"?

Yes but does it have funding? I thought it was still just a proposal.

 

[daodao]

I meant brand new Tram/Light Rail systems, not extensions to existing Tram/Light Rail systems.

I was replying to and correcting a previous post by @edwin_m that appears to have been deleted.

Nowhere. They will talk about it for 20 years, waste millions on surveys and consultations and decide not to bother.

I agree.

 

[Lewisham2221]

There were rumblings of a tram for Preston, although I've not seen any update on progress for a year or two.

Last autumn, Stoke-on-Trent Council held a public consultation on a proposed very light rail system for the city. There has been no further comment since.

 

[P Binnersley]

But isn't there a project called "Coventry Very Light Rail"?

Yes, there is a pot of money for the Coventry VLR project at the West Midlands Combined Authority.
Most of the expenditure so far has been on a VLR Test Centre in Dudley (on the old station site).

I presume the Coventry system will need Transport & Works act approval. As they haven't published a route yet or named the depot site I'm not holding my breath.

I would like to see it; but I suspect it is at least four years until the shovels hit he ground.

 

[edwin_m]

I was replying to and correcting a previous post by @edwin_m that appears to have been deleted.

Yes, deleted because I wrote it in a hurry and I think I was confused between new networks and extensions. I intended to say there were no new networks in serious development, unless you count Coventry which is a bit different from traditional light rail.

 

[YorksLad12]

Leeds does however have three former tramway corridors in the central reservations of major roads radiating from the city centre. These are currently used as guided busways, but would much better suit the green agenda if they were to be used as tramways again....although it may even be possible to combine the two modes.

However: there isn't a proposed "Leeds" system, it's a "West Yorkshire" one (apart from Calderdale, nothing happening there). The two priority routes last time I looked were Bradford-Leeds and Bradford-Dewsbury via Low Moor and Cleckheaton. One of them might not run on rails...

 

[javelin]

Discounting VLR which is a bit of a wildcard, for full-fat light rail Glasgow seems most likely tbh.

I don't see much chance for new systems in England, and probably not in Cardiff-centric Wales either.

 

[Gaelan]

There was a consultation last year for a St Andrews - Leuchars link, where light rail was one of the proposed options (along with heavy rail and an improved bus service), but that doesn’t seem particularly likely to actually happen.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Surely Glasgow is disqualified as it already has the Subway?

 

[Howardh]

Southampton/Portsmouth?

 

[Arkeeos]

It’s easy to point to Leeds as a large place without Light Rail that therefore “deserves” a network

But look at the places that did qualify and the circumstances that they had:

Existing (but run down) local branch lines ripe to be converted to frequent trams (e.g. Manchester to Bury/ Rochdale via Oldham/ Altrincham… Croydon to Wimbledon)

Disused former railway alignments (e.g. Wolverhampton to Birmingham, the Edinburgh proposals were previously involving conversion of old railway alignment to Granton etc)

Lightly used heavy rail routes where some of the land can accommodate trams instead, even if it means squeezing the existing route down to single track (e.g. Attercliffe to Tinsley in Sheffield, Hucknall to Wilkinson Street in Nottingham - Edinburgh managed this without cutting capacity on existing lines, but still the presence of a railway-owned corridor west of Haymarket made it much easier/ cheaper to build a tram route)

Multiple “central” stations, where a frequent line between them would improve local connections (East Croydon to West Croydon, the triangle between Oic/Vic/ Deansgate in Manchester)

Poorly located “central” stations that make rail travel unattractive, but where a frequent tram into the heart of the city can make trains much more attractive (e.g. Sheffield, Nottingham)

None of those seem to really apply to Leeds, which hasn’t got the redundant Railway corridors crying out to be converted… Leeds doesn’t have its train services split between multiple stations… Leeds has one of the best located stations to serve a city centre so no need for typical passengers to require a connecting tram service…

…in short there’s no obviously easy/ urgent routes to target in Leeds, other than just directly copying existing bus services on existing roads but that’s going to be years of disruption to deliver a tram that’s stuck in the same traffic (there doesn’t seem much scope for segregated travel on a corridor like Headingley)

Good luck to any campaigns, I’m not saying that we mustn’t build a Leeds tram, but it’ll need more impetus to justify it than naked population stats - there are reasons why it’s not been a national priority

In all fairness that is totally irrelevant.

 

[daodao]

In all fairness that is totally irrelevant.

I disagree. @tbtc 's post is well argued and outlines the issues clearly.

I was born in Leeds and was told that I travelled on a Leeds tram as an infant, but am too old to remember the system. However, when visiting relatives, I do recall the extensive disused central reservations in several of the outer suburbs, e.g. north of Harehills to Roundhay Park, but these did not extend through the inner suburbs into the city centre. Leeds extensively modernised its system as late as 1953, with new extensions in the late 1940s, but further development, such as central area subways considered desirable to deal with the increasing traffic congestion, was considered to be prohibitively expensive. Labour's nationalisation of electricity generation and supply in 1948 was a hammer blow to municipal electrically run public transport (both trams and trolleybuses) and the specialised equipment required was becoming increasingly expensive. Thus when Labour won control of Leeds City Council exactly 70 years ago (on 7th May 1953), it reversed the policy of the previous Tory administration, and decided that it was better to scrap the tram network so as not to be a burden on the ratepayers, and spend local government resources on other services.

Little of the above has changed. It was a Labour government (in the person of Alistair Darling as secretary of state for transport) that effectively halted the building of new tramways in the UK, including the proposed Leeds Supertram, in 2005.

By contrast, Manchester (where I grew up in the suburb of Chorlton-cum-Hardy) had non-standard electrified suburban railways and a disused rail corridor (the Manchester South District line) that were ripe for conversion to light rail. For the Airport line, there was a central reservation/wide road planned for a first generation tramway extension but never used for that purpose (Mauldeth Road West/Hardy Lane) and extensive grass verges (in the suburb of Wythenshawe) that could be used for a tramway, without much interference with road traffic. There is thus little street running even on this line, the longest stretch (about 1/2 mile) being along Hollyhedge Road, but there are no tram stops on this section.

 

[tbtc]

In all fairness that is totally irrelevant.

It’s obviously hard for me to come back from a thorough debunking as this but maybe you could expand even further on the reasons why you disagree?

I used to live and work in Leeds, I wasted long periods in congested traffic in the city, I’m not arguing against investment in the city

But a lot of the discussion on this thread seems to be little more than “big places have light rail networks” + “Leeds is a big place” = “Leeds should have a light rail network” with little discussion of the practicalities

In a way, Leeds is “cursed” with advantages. It’s got one city centre station, and that station is very central. It hasn’t lost huge swathes of local rail corridors, which sit wasted. It doesn’t have life expired infrastructure on local lines which needs expensive upgrades one way or the other. It has a number of suburban railway stations with at least a couple of trains per hour.

These are the disadvantages that other cities had which were part of the impetus for light rail networks

Plus Leeds doesn’t have any short branches to convert, the “shortest” termini is probably Ilkley, so nothing that looks as ripe as in other cities

So what would the justification be in Leeds? Whilst there are several congested corridors (Headingley!), there’s no disused railway alignments ready for trains to run along, beating the road traffic… instead, the only way of getting trams that way looks to be running them directly on the A61 and getting stuck in the same traffic. A LOT of disruption just to build something no faster than a bus service

There needs to be something more substantial than “everyone else has got one, so we deserve one too”, but the arguments I see in favour of Leeds are very short on specifics and much more focused on complaints about a general “unfairness”

But, as you say, totally irrelevant.