Which units operated between Preston & Blackpool North during the late 1970s?

[Inversnecky]

Which class multiple units were on this route in the late 1970s, or indeed earlier or before?

 

[6Gman]

All sorts!

The basic Manchester Vic - Blackpools were BRCW 3-car units, usually in pairs.
Trains from the East Lancs (Colne or wherever) were usually Cravens 2-car units.
But all sorts could turn up on through trains, including the rather smarter Calder Vally units.

 

[Bevan Price]

All sorts!

The basic Manchester Vic - Blackpools were BRCW 3-car units, usually in pairs.
Trains from the East Lancs (Colne or wherever) were usually Cravens 2-car units.
But all sorts could turn up on through trains, including the rather smarter Calder Vally units.

Note that many of the Manchester services served Blackpool Central until it closed, and then terminated at Blackpool South until the late 1960s or early 1970s.

 

[Revaulx]

All sorts!

The basic Manchester Vic - Blackpools were BRCW 3-car units, usually in pairs.
Trains from the East Lancs (Colne or wherever) were usually Cravens 2-car units.
But all sorts could turn up on through trains, including the rather smarter Calder Vally units.

The Calder Valley units (Class 110) never seemed "rather smarter" to me. They were supposed to be an improvement on the earlier 104s, but they stank of exhaust fumes and tended to burst into flames.

At some point in the early 70s the 104s on the Manchester - Blackpools received a white stripe along their sides at waist height. BR were very proud of this and it received quite a lot of publicity. It didn't stop them being dingy and rattly though. The Longsight-based ones on the Buxton services seemed a lot better maintained.

Note that many of the Manchester services served Blackpool Central until it closed, and then terminated at Blackpool South until the late 1960s or early 1970s.

Indeed.

Whoever decided Blackpool South was acceptable as a "main" station needed certifying. Fortunately common sense prevailed a few years later.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Whoever decided Blackpool South was acceptable as a "main" station needed certifying.

When was Blackpool South previously other than a single track buffer stop? Presumably not for some time?

 

[hexagon789]

At some point in the early 70s the 104s on the Manchester - Blackpools received a white stripe along their sides at waist height. BR were very proud of this and it received quite a lot of publicity. It didn't stop them being dingy and rattly though. The Longsight-based one

It was to indicate modified suspension on this tranche of units.

 

[Trackman]

When was Blackpool South previously other than a single track buffer stop? Presumably not for some time?

I went in the early 80s when it was double track and the station building was still there.
For some reason there was a large mural of a class 33 (I think) at the top of the stairs.
Don't think I've ever been back since.

 

[hexagon789]

When was Blackpool South previously other than a single track buffer stop? Presumably not for some time?

Singled in 1982

 

[Gloster]

Singled in 1982

But until then it had the curiosity of the signal box at South being the other side of the road bridge from the trains. No trains passed the box for around the last fifteen years of its existence.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Which class multiple units were on this route in the late 1970s, or indeed earlier or before?

Newton Heath's finest !

 

[hexagon789]

But until then it had the curiosity of the signal box at South being the other side of the road bridge from the trains. No trains passed the box for around the last fifteen years of its existence.

But still manned?

 

[Gloster]

But still manned?

Indeed, it was. The line was still double track and there were facing and trailing crossovers south of the platform, which had tracks on either side of it.

 

[Revaulx]

It was to indicate modified suspension on this tranche of units.

Ah! I'd forgotten that, or was never aware of it. There was a South Mancunian belief that they were "go faster" stripes...

Indeed, it was. The line was still double track and there were facing and trailing crossovers south of the platform, which had tracks on either side of it.

Prior to closure of the direct line to Kirkham which diverged immediately south of the station, it had four platforms. Even when it still had buildings, the abandoned half and marooned signalbox gave it a really weird atmosphere; a bit like Broad Street in its final days.

 

[hexagon789]

Indeed, it was. The line was still double track and there were facing and trailing crossovers south of the platform, which had tracks on either side of it.

Cheers, I wasn't sure if you meant that or merely that it was still extant.

Ah! I'd forgotten that, or was never aware of it. There was a South Mancunian belief that they were "go faster" stripes...

I either read that on Railcar .co.uk, in the Longworth DMU book or in both.

 

[El Blanco]

I went in the early 80s when it was double track and the station building was still there.
For some reason there was a large mural of a class 33 (I think) at the top of the stairs.
Don't think I've ever been back since.

There was a model railway exhibition there. I think it was called Platform 3. The mural could have been something to do with that?

 

[tbwbear]

The Calder Valley units (Class 110) never seemed "rather smarter" to me. They were supposed to be an improvement on the earlier 104s, but they stank of exhaust fumes and tended to burst into flames.

At some point in the early 70s the 104s on the Manchester - Blackpools received a white stripe along their sides at waist height. BR were very proud of this and it received quite a lot of publicity. It didn't stop them being dingy and rattly though. The Longsight-based ones on the Buxton services seemed a lot better maintained.


Indeed.

Whoever decided Blackpool South was acceptable as a "main" station needed certifying. Fortunately common sense prevailed a few years later.

I think the white stripe thing on the 104s was connected to some kind of upgrade to the Blackpool North to Manchester Victoria service around 1970-2. The stripes were partly to help Newton Heath keep the units dedicated to the Blackpool service I think. And my goodness didn't they vibrate and rattle !

I am not sure whether that upgrade was connected with the move of the whole Manchester service from Blackpool South to North or maybe the stripes were a bit later.

As you say, the main Manchester Victoria and London Euston services were (somewhat incomprehensibly) kept at South for more than five years after Central closed. (1964-1970)

I was growing up in Lytham St Annes at that time (I was 5 in 1969) and I have memories of frequent 104s heading to Manchester and Class 50s with very short rakes of Mk1s on the London trains (with additional coaches added at Preston I think ) one year, suddenly being replaced by a two car DMU shuttle to Kirkham the next. Post 1970 Blackpool South retained a couple of peak Manchester workings - One was usually 2 x 104 and the other was always a Trans-Pennine set.

I never went to Blackpool South in those days (with Central gone - Blackpool was better on the bus) so I don't know how they managed all that at South with just the two platform layout that must have been there between 1964 and 1970. Or was it more extensive then ?

My memory is a bit fuzzy but I guess they must have moved everything to the old North Station in 1970. The current (old excursion platforms) one didn't open until 1974. I remember visiting the old North just once.

The model railway at Blackpool South was indeed called Platform 3, although it wasn't strictly speaking an "exhibition". It was a massive single layout (perhaps one of the largest in the UK at the time) which you paid a small fee to view. There was a shop selling all kinds of railway modelling / railway stuff.
I had a saturday job in the shop (and also sometimes got involved with rerailing some of the trains that had derailed on the layout) there in the late 70s. Sad to say, I don't remember the Class 33 mural.

 

[Inversnecky]

There was a model railway exhibition there. I think it was called Platform 3. The mural could have been something to do with that?

That was one of the reasons I was taken there as a boy: Platform 3 and the Dr Who exhibition!

 

[Trackman]

There was a model railway exhibition there. I think it was called Platform 3. The mural could have been something to do with that?

I forgot about that, my memory is a bit hazy of the visit. Must be some connection. I also thing they were some other paintings/drawings too.

 

[Inversnecky]

My first ever trip on a multiple unit was on a 1970s holiday to Blackpool: a loco led train from Scotland, then a DMU from Preston.

I was 10/11 at the time, and was quite excited, as I could sit right behind the driver and see through the glass at the view in front and the controls (a bit like being at the front of the top deck on a bus!).

Looking through at the cab, I’d hear the warning sounds and see the AWS sunflower and try to work out what set it off, and soon noticed the ramps we went over sometimes set it off. All very novel, and a lot busier than north Scotland!

I guess the DMU must have been something like a 101/105?

Which MUs had passenger views through to the cab?

 

[52290]

My first ever trip on a multiple unit was on a 1970s holiday to Blackpool: a loco led train from Scotland, then a DMU from Preston.

I was 10/11 at the time, and was quite excited, as I could sit right behind the driver and see through the glass at the view in front and the controls (a bit like being at the front of the top deck on a bus!).

Looking through at the cab, I’d hear the warning sounds and see the AWS sunflower and try to work out what set it off, and soon noticed the ramps we went over sometimes set it off. All very novel, and a lot busier than north Scotland!

I guess the DMU must have been something like a 101/105?

Which MUs had passenger views through to the cab?

I remember around 1954 traveling from Preston to Blackpool North and back in a DMU which was advertised as a vision of the future, Preston to Blackpool in less than 20 minutes.I went with a school mate and his dad and we also sat behind the driver, which I liked because you could get the numbers of approaching steam trains. I think it possibly was also a free trip.

 

[Revaulx]

I never went to Blackpool South in those days (with Central gone - Blackpool was better on the bus) so I don't know how they managed all that at South with just the two platform layout that must have been there between 1964 and 1970. Or was it more extensive then ?

The 1946 OS map https://maps.nls.uk/view/126517214 shows pretty clearly that the abandoned half of the station was only accessible from the cut-off line, so the two (then) extant platforms were all that would have been available from the Lytham direction.

My memory is a bit fuzzy but I guess they must have moved everything to the old North Station in 1970. The current (old excursion platforms) one didn't open until 1974. I remember visiting the old North just once.

I visited it just before it closed, having made a similar pilgrimage to Bradford Exchange about a year earlier. Whereas the latter was vast and ruinous, North was compact and in perfectly good condition, though a lick of paint wouldn't have gone amiss.

There's no doubt that Blackpool had vast overcapacity in its railway infrastructure by the mid-60s. With the benefit of hindsight it would have been good had the old North (which was itself conveniently sited for both the sea front and the commercial centre) been done up and retained for the long-distance services, and Central replaced by a simple two-platform terminus for the Lytham line. This would still have released the majority of the railway land between South and Central that the Council was so desperate to get hold of.

 

[bassmike]

Remember travelling to Blackpool central in the early 50's.

 

[Bevan Price]

I think the white stripe thing on the 104s was connected to some kind of upgrade to the Blackpool North to Manchester Victoria service around 1970-2. The stripes were partly to help Newton Heath keep the units dedicated to the Blackpool service I think. And my goodness didn't they vibrate and rattle !

I am not sure whether that upgrade was connected with the move of the whole Manchester service from Blackpool South to North or maybe the stripes were a bit later.

As you say, the main Manchester Victoria and London Euston services were (somewhat incomprehensibly) kept at South for more than five years after Central closed. (1964-1970)

I was growing up in Lytham St Annes at that time (I was 5 in 1969) and I have memories of frequent 104s heading to Manchester and Class 50s with very short rakes of Mk1s on the London trains (with additional coaches added at Preston I think ) one year, suddenly being replaced by a two car DMU shuttle to Kirkham the next. Post 1970 Blackpool South retained a couple of peak Manchester workings - One was usually 2 x 104 and the other was always a Trans-Pennine set.

I never went to Blackpool South in those days (with Central gone - Blackpool was better on the bus) so I don't know how they managed all that at South with just the two platform layout that must have been there between 1964 and 1970. Or was it more extensive then ?

Until some time at / after the London trains finished, some sidings continued beyond the overbridge at Blackpool South, where locos could run round the stock, and the stock could wait for its next duty. The area is now of part of the large car park.

 

[tbwbear]

Until some time at / after the London trains finished, some sidings continued beyond the overbridge at Blackpool South, where locos could run round the stock, and the stock could wait for its next duty. The area is now of part of the large car park.

Ah yes, you are correct. I have now managed to find an 1971-2 OS Map at Old Maps which shows extensive sidings and even a turntable between Waterloo Road bridge (where Blackpool South was / is) and the next bridge at Bloomfield Road. On that map nothing else exists north of Bloomfield Road and certainly all the approaches to Central have already gone. Those sidings would have just fed the two remaining platforms (1 & 2) at Blackpool South. The Marton (3 & 4) ones closed when that line closed and, as pointed out above, they would have been useless to feed the coast line anyway.

By the time I started using South around 1977 all that area had already been cleared and there were just the two platforms (the whole line from Kirkham was still double track) which ended in buffer stops under Waterloo Bridge. That arrangement, with the signal box isolated north of the bridge, must have existed from the removal of those sidings around 1970-1 until the singling of the line in 1982.

I am still confused why they kept most of the London and Manchester traffic at South (the question posed by Revaulx in post #4) between 1964 and 1970. It doesn't make a lot of sense, unless it was a temporary thing whilst they prepared North in some way maybe ?

 

[Springs Branch]

I am still confused why they kept most of the London and Manchester traffic at South (the question posed by Revaulx in post #4) between 1964 and 1970. It doesn't make a lot of sense, unless it was a temporary thing whilst they prepared North in some way maybe ?

I suspect part of (or even the main) reason for continuing to run London and many of the Manchester services to Blackpool South after Central had closed was to carry on providing direct trains to major destinations for the well-heeled areas of Lytham, St.Annes, Ansdell etc.

I believe many of the premium residential trains from Central to/from Manchester & the East Lancs. mill towns used to run via "The Coast" rather than the more direct Marton route back into L&Y days.

Maybe BR was worried about the strongly-worded complaints from outraged, prosperous commuters and angry businessmen if they diverted their convenient direct trains to Blackpool North?

OT, but my school headmaster was considered very well-to-do by various parents because he lived in Lytham - although he commuted to Wigan each day in his big, black Rover rather than by fast train.

 

[tbwbear]

I believe many of the premium residential trains from Central to/from Manchester & the East Lancs. mill towns used to run via "The Coast" rather than the more direct Marton route back into L&Y days.

Yes indeed.

And also for reference there is an old LMR 1962 timetable on the "timetable world" site which shows the final distribution of Blackpool to Preston services before Central closed. It is interesting to see the distribution between North, Central via Marton, Central via Coast services.

Also, in case the OP hasn't seen it, the website "prestonstation.org.uk" is a gold mine of information.

There are some photographs of the old 104 DMUs with their white stripes in the galleries section and a full list of the 1966/7 station arrivals and departures showing all the Blackpool trains incl. which ones were DMUs etc... in the odds and ends section.

Worth a look !

 

[Leyther]

As with previous comments the mainstay on Blackpool Manchester Victoria services were white stripe 104 units.
Plus weekdays there was a loco hauled morning Blackpool to Victoria commuter service
Loco hauled returning from Victoria to Blackpool.
The south to kirkham shuttle was often a two car derby 108 unit.
I recollect a loco hauled football special going to south in September 1977 with Tottenham away fans.
There were other loco hauled football specials.
Plus the royal train went to st Anne's around 1978 ish.
As mentioned south signal box was out on a limb on the north side of Waterloo road bridge.
Other signal boxes from memory were at st annes. Possibly at moss side as well.
Other units often working into Blackpool in the late 70's early 80's were the 110 units.
And the trans pennine units.

 

[Springs Branch]

And also for reference there is an old LMR 1962 timetable on the "timetable world" site which shows the final distribution of Blackpool to Preston services before Central closed. It is interesting to see the distribution between North, Central via Marton, Central via Coast services.

Worth an honourable mention - while we're talking about rolling stock and service patterns on the Fylde in the 1960s & 70s - is that until May 1970 there was also a decent passenger service to Fleetwood.

The 1960s-era timetables show some through trains between Fleetwood and Preston, Manchester & Liverpool, plus some shorter distance branch trains connecting with Blackpool services at Poulton-le-Fylde or Kirkham.

Some trains divided/combined at Poulton with portions for Blackpool North and Fleetwood, and there were some through trains to Fleetwood which had a separate connecting train running between Poulton and Blackpool North.

Presumably the through Fleetwood-Manchester services and those which combined/divided at Poulton were the "white stripe" and plain blue Class 104, and the Poulton or Kirkham shuttles would be the Cravens 105 or Derby 108 units later used on the Blackpool South branch.

Then there's the story of the relocation of Fleetwood station to Wyre Dock in the final years, but that's OT for this thread.

 

[RAPC]

Very much remember travelling from Victoria to Blackpool North as a child for family days out in the early to mid 80s. Was usually a 104, or occasionally a 108 from memory. As others have said, I'd usually try to persuade my mum to get us to the station early, so as to try to bag the seats behind the driver for a forward view. Happy memories.

 

[Taunton]

I used this from Preston from time to time in the late 1970s doing Edinburgh to Manchester if there wasn't a through train (or even if there was, and sat in it during the lengthy loco change at Preston you saw one of the BRCW sets rolling in). I always liked their ambience, especially on a cold winter evening after being out on Preston platform - the timber finishes inside, the heaters which always worked fine, and I have no recollection of noticeable vibration; they sped along fine while the snow swirled around outside. Apparently only the LMR went for the timber finish - the equivalent NER ones had Formica instead.

When the route first dieselised in the 1960s it seemed to be all done with Derby and Cravens 2-car sets, lashed up into 6 or 8-car formation. These caused complaints from the season ticket holders on the route, and a Trans-Pennine set was found to do the key evening commuter run to Blackpool South, returning next morning. In parallel, a loco hauled set, normally a Class 40, ran to Blackpool North. It took a while for the Derby etc sets to be replaced by the modified BRCW sets.