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Why Are Cross Country Running 2 Coach Trains On the Cardiff > Nottingham Route?

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Envoy

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I thought that arrangements had been made for some middle coaches to be transferred to Cross Country in order to make all their 170’s 3 car. I see that 2 coach trains are still in use on the Cardiff > Gloucester > Cheltenham > Worcestershire Parkway > Birmingham > Derby > Nottingham route. It must be quite a risk to be packed into one of these trains with this virus still about. So, why no 3 coach trains?
 
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dk1

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I thought that arrangements had been made for some middle coaches to be transferred to Cross Country in order to make all their 170’s 3 car. I see that 2 coach trains are still in use on the Cardiff > Gloucester > Cheltenham > Worcestershire Parkway > Birmingham > Derby > Nottingham route. It must be quite a risk to be packed into one of these trains with this virus still about. So, why no 3 coach trains?
Most Stansted-Birmingham now appear to be 3-cars.
 

NSE

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It won’t happen overnight (irony being the work usually happens overnight!). The trains have to have the carriage removed and then inserted.

They also use the stock on the Stansted route so I presume they’ll get the uplift too. So even if a train is ready, it may be used on that route instead.
 

43096

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It won’t happen overnight (irony being the work usually happens overnight!). The trains have to have the carriage removed and then inserted.
All six sets that were planned to be lengthened have been and were completed a few months ago.
 

JonathanH

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It won’t happen overnight (irony being the work usually happens overnight!). The trains have to have the carriage removed and then inserted.
All of 170618-170623 have been converted to 3-car for a while now.

CrossCountry have 22 3-car 170s (170101-110/397/398/618-623/636-639) and 7 2-car 170s (170111-170117)

The Leicester / Stansted operation is a 10-hour cycle. The Cardiff / Nottingham operation is an 11-hour cycle. There is one peak extra (1709 Birmingham to Leicester) on the Leicester route. It would appear that availability needs to be quite high not to require a 2-car working.

The 1V15 1805 Nottingham to Cardiff Central still splits at Birmingham New Street with the rear unit going to Tyseley.

Having seven 2-car units isn't really that helpful if the intention is to run them in pairs since six from seven is high utilisation and four from seven is somewhat low.
 
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Stephen1001

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I've used this route a few times lately and had 2-car services twice. Both times it was busy enough that the guard had to open the section that's currently restricted from passenger use for staff social distancing to avoid crowding, although it did calm down a bit north-east of Birmingham where the second hourly service is still in place. With no prospect of further lengthening the 170s that I'm aware of, it seems likely that this will continue for a while - perhaps until (speculation alert) Voyagers/Meridians can take over some diagrams on the route following a potential cascade from EMR.
 

Watershed

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All of 170618-170623 have been converted to 3-car for a while now.

CrossCountry have 22 3-car 170s (170101-110/397/398/618-623/636-639) and 7 2-car 170s (170111-170117)

The Leicester / Stansted operation is a 10-hour cycle. The Cardiff / Nottingham operation is an 11-hour cycle. There is one peak extra (1709 Birmingham to Leicester) on the Leicester route. It would appear that availability needs to be quite high not to require a 2-car working.

The 1V15 1805 Nottingham to Cardiff Central still splits at Birmingham New Street with the rear unit going to Tyseley.

Having seven 2-car units isn't really that helpful if the intention is to run them in pairs since six from seven is high utilisation and four from seven is somewhat low.
It's a shame that the Nottingham and Leicester shuttles interwork with the Stansted and Cardiffs, otherwise you would be able to run those (mostly) as 2 cars and the longer distance services as 3 cars.
 

JonathanH

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It's a shame that the Nottingham and Leicester shuttles interwork with the Stansted and Cardiffs, otherwise you would be able to run those (mostly) as 2 cars and the longer distance services as 3 cars.
I'm not sure that would necessarily help other than perhaps you could split off one of the 2-cars during the day between the peaks a bit easier. Is the flow into Birmingham any less on the 'shorts'?
 

Envoy

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This is an appalling situation that these major population centres often have 2 coach trains. Best to stick to the car - if you have one - until they get their act together. I understand that Hitachi 800’s are under construction and will be used to replace Voyagers on Avanti services. These Voyagers should then join Cross Country along hopefully with Meridians from East Midland Trains. Anybody know when these transfers are likely to take place?
 

Watershed

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This is an appalling situation that these major population centres often have 2 coach trains.
There's plenty of other major population centres with 2 coach trains, so it's by no means a unique situation. That's not to say it's ideal.

Best to stick to the car - if you have one
That's what most people do. Although I doubt increasing the length of these trains from 2 to 3 coaches is going to materially increase the railway's share of the market.

until they get their act together.
There isn't even a suggestion that these routes might get new (or longer) rolling stock. Any change is likely to be 5-10 years in future, at best.

I understand that Hitachi 800’s are under construction and will be used to replace Voyagers on Avanti services. These Voyagers should then join Cross Country
In any logical world, they will. The DfT is on the hook for the leasing charges "come hell or high water" for another 10 years so they might as well see some practical use. Of course, the DfT might see fit to allocate them to somewhere else.

along hopefully with Meridians from East Midland Trains. Anybody know when these transfers are likely to take place?
I'd consider it less likely that the Meridians will be transferred to XC.
 

DannyMich2018

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I'm not sure that would necessarily help other than perhaps you could split off one of the 2-cars during the day between the peaks a bit easier. Is the flow into Birmingham any less on the 'shorts'?
Its difficult for XC to manage because 7 2 car units have to be used on some services, of course they'll try and avoid using them on too much singly on busy services. I live in Hinckley and observations are the short Leicester to Birmingham services usually can cope been 2 cars in the week on most services. Post Covid overcrowding I've only experienced at weekends and that's often due to reduced services causing crowding.
 

swt_passenger

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This is an appalling situation that these major population centres often have 2 coach trains. Best to stick to the car - if you have one - until they get their act together. I understand that Hitachi 800’s are under construction and will be used to replace Voyagers on Avanti services. These Voyagers should then join Cross Country along hopefully with Meridians from East Midland Trains. Anybody know when these transfers are likely to take place?
The chances of them using over specced 22x on the 170 routes is incredibly low, even if such a transfer of stock takes place. It’s a popular solution here to XC long distance capacity, but I don’t believe it’s ever been officially mentioned by DfT.

But going back to the first post, it was never announced that all of the 170s were to be extended.
 

JonathanH

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But going back to the first post, it was never announced that all of the 170s were to be extended.
While that is true, was it implied that where 2-car units were to remain in use, they would be paired up? While there is the long-standing 4-car working that hits Birmingham around 0830 and then splits later for the 1930 to Cardiff (with a unit going to Tyseley) it could be imagined that another working would also be arranged for 4-car operation (although the issue arises that it would really have to be 'out and back' from Tyseley to work).

It seems that they do try and run all of the diagrams on the Leicester route as 3-car now.
 

43096

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In any logical world, they will. The DfT is on the hook for the leasing charges "come hell or high water" for another 10 years so they might as well see some practical use.
Are they? Do you have a source for that, as the original 15-year term on them expired some time ago.
 

Envoy

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Many thanks for your further responses and clarifications. What with these inadequate XC trains on the Cardiff to Nottingham route and the lack of a direct Cardiff to Newcastle service, south Wales is being treated like some kind of backwater. Throw in the inadequate class 165/166 trains on the Cardiff to Portsmouth route and it appears that Cardiff & Newport have drawn the short straw regarding rolling stock - London GWR trains excepted. Of course, all this must surely induce people to travel by road - despite the anti car Welsh Government refusing to build new roads and leave the M4 bottle neck at Newport tunnel. At least they are trying to sort out the Transport for Wales services.
 

Bald Rick

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Many thanks for your further responses and clarifications. What with these inadequate XC trains on the Cardiff to Nottingham route and the lack of a direct Cardiff to Newcastle service, south Wales is being treated like some kind of backwater. Throw in the inadequate class 165/166 trains on the Cardiff to Portsmouth route and it appears that Cardiff & Newport have drawn the short straw regarding rolling stock - London GWR trains excepted. Of course, all this must surely induce people to travel by road - despite the anti car Welsh Government refusing to build new roads and leave the M4 bottle neck at Newport tunnel. At least they are trying to sort out the Transport for Wales services.

When was the last time there was a Cardiff to Newcastle service? Must be 25 years at least.

And when was the last time the Cardiff to Nirmknghams were anything longer than 3/4 coaches?

And why is the rolling stock to Portsmouth inadequate?
 

swt_passenger

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While that is true, was it implied that where 2-car units were to remain in use, they would be paired up? While there is the long-standing 4-car working that hits Birmingham around 0830 and then splits later for the 1930 to Cardiff (with a unit going to Tyseley) it could be imagined that another working would also be arranged for 4-car operation (although the issue arises that it would really have to be 'out and back' from Tyseley to work).

It seems that they do try and run all of the diagrams on the Leicester route as 3-car now.
From what I remember, (without searching for it), the original DfT or XC news about the extra capacity was one of those exaggerated stories where they simply said there‘d be so many thousands of extra seats per year, which as is well known is fairly easy to do if you multiply out months, weeks, days, services per day, seats per coach etc etc…
 

Starmill

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why is the rolling stock to Portsmouth inadequate?
Inadequate? Maybe, maybe not. But I don't think anyone would call it attractive. The Turbos are incredibly scuffed and worn inside, with ingrained dirt and very old seat fabric and floor coverings. Most of the seats lack anywhere to put a cup of coffee down while seated and the bays of six makes the aisle very narrow and cramped.
 

Watershed

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Are they? Do you have a source for that, as the original 15-year term on them expired some time ago.
Quite right you are. Had in my mind that the section 54 agreements were longer.
 

43096

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Quite right you are. Had in my mind that the section 54 agreements were longer.
I don't think there's much on section 54 agreements now, as DfT don't like giving them to the ROSCOs, although they're quite happy to hand them out on their pet projects (thinks IEP). Only ones I'm aware of outside of those projects are the SWR 444 and 450 fleets and I think the ScotRail HST fleet.
 

MattRat

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Many thanks for your further responses and clarifications. What with these inadequate XC trains on the Cardiff to Nottingham route and the lack of a direct Cardiff to Newcastle service, south Wales is being treated like some kind of backwater. Throw in the inadequate class 165/166 trains on the Cardiff to Portsmouth route and it appears that Cardiff & Newport have drawn the short straw regarding rolling stock - London GWR trains excepted. Of course, all this must surely induce people to travel by road - despite the anti car Welsh Government refusing to build new roads and leave the M4 bottle neck at Newport tunnel. At least they are trying to sort out the Transport for Wales services.
Everything in Wales is underdeveloped it seems. And honestly, there is no excuse when you look at ScotRail who are in a similar situation. Maybe TFW and ScotRail should merge, so Wales can get ScotRail like services.
 

JonathanH

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Everything in Wales is underdeveloped it seems. And honestly, there is no excuse when you look at ScotRail who are in a similar situation. Maybe TFW and ScotRail should merge, so Wales can get ScotRail like services.
That isn't going to make much difference to the length of trains operating between Cardiff, Birmingham and Nottingham.
 

MattRat

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That isn't going to make much difference to the length of trains operating between Cardiff, Birmingham and Nottingham.
True. Sorry, I got a little off topic about bad infrastructure in general. Although more electrification for example might help these routes (upgrade trains).
 

Tomos y Tanc

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Everything in Wales is underdeveloped it seems. And honestly, there is no excuse when you look at ScotRail who are in a similar situation. Maybe TFW and ScotRail should merge, so Wales can get ScotRail like services.
The difference being that rail in Scotland has been fully devolved for decades. In Wales it's only been partially devolved and that happened fairly recently.

That's why Scotland and NI are getting multi-billion pound Barnett consequentials for HS2 while Wales gets a few scraps, despite Parliamentary committee findings that HS2 will be of marginal benefit to north Wales and highly detrimental to the economy of the southern half of the country.

Anyway back to the topic on hand... I really think that Cross Country has always been the ugly sister of franchises. The routes should be shared out between other operators.
 

Dr Day

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Trying to get back on topic.

Is the overcrowding on this route really that bad post-Covid? And if so is that simply due to covid-related reduced supply (across all operators including XC Voyagers) rather than a few 2 cars remaining on the Cardiff-Notts service? I haven't travelled much recently but previously rarely (outside major disruption/rugby etc) had to stand for more than 20 minutes at the southern end of the route even with 2-cars, Yes certain peak trains between Cardiff and Newport were standing only, one XC train each way is the 'school train' to Gloucester and the TfW service has large gaps particularly on Sundays but not sure laying all the blame on 2 car 170s is particularly fair. Taking out the Bromsgrove morning peak call has helped considerably. If we are returning to 'normality' shouldn't that include an expectation of some short-distance standing anyway?
 

MattRat

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The difference being that rail in Scotland has been fully devolved for decades. In Wales it's only been partially devolved and that happened fairly recently.

That's why Scotland and NI are getting multi-billion pound Barnett consequentials for HS2 while Wales gets a few scraps, despite Parliamentary committee findings that HS2 will be of marginal benefit to north Wales and highly detrimental to the economy of the southern half of the country.

Anyway back to the topic on hand... I really think that Cross Country has always been the ugly sister of franchises. The routes should be shared out between other operators.
If I'm reading this right, more power to Welsh parliament so they can turn around and tell people like XC that something isn't good enough.
 
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