Why did the IC 225’s need to be replaced under the Intercity Express Program (IEP)?

[Transilien]

Moderator note: Split from

Intercity 225

My thoughts after taking one of the rare LNER services operated by an Intercity 225 set. Previously I thought that people were overblowing how bad the Azuma is, especially their first class offering. The seats were uncomfortable, true, and definitely not suited to long distance runs. The seats...

www.railforums.co.uk

One question I have is why did the IC 225’s need to be replaced under the inter city express program?

The HSTs were at the end of their lifespan but the IC 225 had at least 10 more years left in them at the time of procurement.

Also l, the HSTs had the problem of running under OHLE for large parts of their route and needed more modifications with their slam doors. Why didn’t they just replace the HSTs with bi mode IETs?


It is also strange that they kept a few IC 225s in service, leading to a problem of a microfleet.

 

[danielnez1]

One question I have is why did the IC 225’s need to be replaced under the inter city express program. The HSTs were at the end of their lifespan but the IC 225 had at least 10 more years left in them at the time of procurement. Also the HSTs had the problem of running under OHLE for large parts of their route and needed more modifications with their slam doors. Why didn’t they just replace the HSTs with bi mode IETs?

It is also strange that they kept a few IC 225s in service leading to a problem of a microfleet.

I think for a while it was up in the air if the 225 fleet was to be replaced. Evershot released a video of a heavy IC 225 refurb concept where electronic seat reservations were to be fitted, the kitchen moved to the DVT and even 1+1 swivel seating in first class.

Replacing them did make sense IMHO as it gave LNER a more standardised fleet, though the issues with the seats, build quality and the overall cost of the contract have tainted things a lot.

 

[Transilien]

Replacing them did make sense IMHO as it gave LNER a more standardised fleet,

I wonder why they didn’t replace them all then? They could have ordered extra 801s instead of keeping a few making a more standardised fleet.

 

[DanNCL]

I wonder why they didn’t replace them all then? They could have ordered extra 801s instead of keeping a few making a more standardised fleet.

That was originally the plan, but the (still postponed) timetable enhancements required more sets. Even without the enhanced timetable, availability of the 80xs units has been below what it should be and the 91s have had to prop up the 80xs to keep the existing timetable running. Ironic when pre-2019 it was everything else propping up the 91s!

Public sector procurement rules prevented a direct order for extra Hitachi units, it had to go to competitive tender which CAF won. Hitachi reportedly priced themselves out.

 

[Chester1]

Moderator note: Split from

Intercity 225

My thoughts after taking one of the rare LNER services operated by an Intercity 225 set. Previously I thought that people were overblowing how bad the Azuma is, especially their first class offering. The seats were uncomfortable, true, and definitely not suited to long distance runs. The seats...

www.railforums.co.uk

One question I have is why did the IC 225’s need to be replaced under the inter city express program?

The HSTs were at the end of their lifespan but the IC 225 had at least 10 more years left in them at the time of procurement.

Also l, the HSTs had the problem of running under OHLE for large parts of their route and needed more modifications with their slam doors. Why didn’t they just replace the HSTs with bi mode IETs?


It is also strange that they kept a few IC 225s in service, leading to a problem of a microfleet.

The better condition Mark IVs are now running long distance TfW services and due to continue until they are life expires in early 2030s. There might be a taker for the remaining LNER Mark IVs e.g. Scotrail. Its unusual for WCML and ECML stock to be used until the are unserviceable. I would be surprised if the IEP units stay after their 27 year contract is up. As arguably the number one line the ECML justifies early replacement and cascades.

 

[Transilien]

On both the Great Western and East coast , HSTs lasted really until the end of their lives. Also the second life of the Mark 4s seems to be plagued by reliability problems; much like the ScotRail HSTs. It seems to me a better use of a rolling stock’s lifespan to be used on the route it was designed for. (Reliability doesn’t seem to be a problem on the IC225s that are still on the east coast).

 

[Royston Vasey]

The better condition Mark IVs are now running long distance TfW services and due to continue until they are life expires in early 2030s. There might be a taker for the remaining LNER Mark IVs e.g. Scotrail. Its unusual for WCML and ECML stock to be used until the are unserviceable. I would be surprised if the IEP units stay after their 27 year contract is up. As arguably the number one line the ECML justifies early replacement and cascades.

I think the best Mk IVs stayed with LNER, TfW have the GC examples which were the first LNER got rid of, and the ones they acquired directly after LNER which you'd think were the ones in most medium condition. A lot of faults especially door faults.

The GC ones will I expect have had some corrosion repairs but I don't know if that was extensive or bare minimum.

 

[Chester1]

I think the best Mk IVs stayed with LNER, TfW have the GC examples which were the first LNER got rid of, and the ones they acquired directly after LNER which you'd think were the ones in most medium condition. A lot of faults especially door faults.

The GC ones will I expect have had some corrosion repairs but I don't know if that was extensive or bare minimum.

Sorry I meant the best that LNER got rid of. Perhaps that was a bit optimistic. Some poor condition carriages were scrapped.

On both the Great Western and East coast , HSTs lasted really until the end of their lives. Also the second life of the Mark 4s seems to be plagued by reliability problems; much like the ScotRail HSTs. It seems to me a better use of a rolling stock’s lifespan to be used on the route it was designed for. (Reliability doesn’t seem to be a problem on the IC225s that are still on the east coast).

I think its charitable to TfW to blame the principle of transfer. Most cascades of rolling stock don't have the problems at TfW. ScotRail have problems with HSTs but its age related, earlier HST and Mark III cascades were successful. There doesn't seem to be any significant problems with the Voyagers that have left Avanti so far.

 

[Energy]

The original IEP order would have been much larger but in the early 2010s, the new Conservative government cut down the order and excluded IC225 replacement. It was later decided that replacing IC225s was a good idea and the order options were used up on the 30 9 car 801s.