Why do LNER not seem to understand that any delay means you can choose not to travel and receive a refund?

[therailwayking]

I quote you the below from the National Rail Conditions of Carriage:

30. Your Right to a Refund If Your Train Is Disrupted and You Choose Not to Travel
30.1 Conditions 30.1 –30.4 cover all Tickets other than Season Tickets, and also apply if you have begun your journey but are unable to complete it due to a delay to, or cancellation of, your service. In such cases, you are permitted to return to your point of origin and still get a refund

You may return an unused Ticket to the original retailer or Train Company from whom it was purchased, where you will be given a full refund with no administration fee charged, if you decide not to travel because the train you intended to use is:
• cancelled, or
• delayed,

It does specify any specific time for a delay, but any delay.

In theory a delay of 1 or 2 minutes mean you can choose not to travel and receive a full refund even for an Advance ticket.
Over the past couple years I have put in a few of these claims to both GWR and LNER. GWR seem to have no problems understanding this and issue the refunds without issue.
This is the second time LNER have rejected my claim. This time the train was 11 minutes late leaving Manchester and 12 minutes late into Wolverhampton so not an insignificant delay.

I have gone back to them quoting the NRCoC again.

Anyone else had issues with LNER honouring this?

 

[Haywain]

This is the second time LNER have rejected my claim. This time the train was 11 minutes late leaving Manchester and 12 minutes late into Wolverhampton so not an insignificant delay.

Did you travel on this train? If so, you are not entitled to a refund from the retailer but should claim for Delay Repay compensation from the train operator, and LNER are correct to reject your claims. If you have been claiming under these circumstances from GWR then you are potentially committing an offence of fraud and should stop doing so immediately - this is not a trivial matter.

 

[therailwayking]

I did not travel on the train.
Nor in any other circumstances in previous dealings with GWR.

 

[Haywain]

I did not travel on the train.

So, when you claimed a refund what reason did you give? If you just used a 'train delayed' option, you will have problems for the reasons stated above. You need to be clear that you did not travel because the train was delayed. If that's what actually happened.

 

[800001]

I did not travel on the train.
Nor in any other circumstances in previous dealings with GWR.

Out of interest why would you not travel if a train was 11 minutes late?

 

[therailwayking]

I was clear. I chose the 'train cancelled/delayed' option on the LNER website on the 'Claim Refund' option.
In the past LNER rejected my claim and said a 3 minute delay did not qualify despite that not being what the rules say. I went back to that effect and they gave me a voucher but only as a 'gesture of goodwill'.
My concern is they do not seem to understand the rules in this area and may be rejecting lots of claims under their flawed logic.
Any delay means you can choose not to travel and get a fee free refund. Even 1 minute.

I travel a lot nationally.
I tend to book Advance tickets as they overall work out cheaper than buying flexible.
Quite often my plans change so I will not need to take that train but I will always check if its delayed or not to see if I can claim the refund.
The rules do not forbit this approach.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Out of interest why would you not travel if a train was 11 minutes late?

Because you might miss your bus and decide to drive instead? I've done it.

The NRCoT provides that *any* delay makes a refund possible, it doesn't specify any thresholds. LNER might well be trying to apply the "it's not delayed until it's 5 minutes late" thing that applies in other areas, but 11 minutes is more than 5 so they really shouldn't be quibbling here.

 

[800001]

Because you might miss your bus and decide to drive instead? I've done it.

The NRCoT provides that *any* delay makes a refund possible, it doesn't specify any thresholds. LNER might well be trying to apply the "it's not delayed until it's 5 minutes late" thing that applies in other areas, but 11 minutes is more than 5 so they really shouldn't be quibbling here.

Fair point.

 

[Haywain]

Quite often my plans change so I will not need to take that train but I will always check if its delayed or not to see if I can claim the refund.
The rules do not forbit this approach.

So, you are playing the system. You are right that the rules don't forbid doing so but it seems that you are going to have to work harder to get LNER to play by the rules. In future perhaps you should use a retailer that is more co-operative with your way of doing things - after all, they are not making anything from these sort of transactions.

 

[therailwayking]

So, you are playing the system. You are right that the rules don't forbid doing so but it seems that you are going to have to work harder to get LNER to play by the rules. In future perhaps you should use a retailer that is more co-operative with your way of doing things - after all, they are not making anything from these sort of transactions.

I am gaming the system - Yes. I am allowed to do it.
Works both ways - Like when they keep my money for trains that are not late and I do not take.
LNER are signed up to the NRCoC and should abide by it.

 

[akm]

So, you are playing the system. You are right that the rules don't forbid doing so but it seems that you are going to have to work harder to get LNER to play by the rules. In future perhaps you should use a retailer that is more co-operative with your way of doing things - after all, they are not making anything from these sort of transactions.

Wouldn't it be nice if companies 'played by the rules' - that is to say, followed the rules - without anyone having to do anything, let alone having to 'work hard'.

 

[Haywain]

Wouldn't it be nice if companies 'played by the rules' - that is to say, followed the rules - without anyone having to do anything, let alone having to 'work hard'.

Of course, but people who play the system may find that those they are dealing also play the system.

 

[therailwayking]

I would not say that refusing to issue refunds despite the NRCoC saying you should to be 'playing the system'.
It is actually a large retailer blatantly denying consumers their rights.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I would not say that refusing to issue refunds despite the NRCoC saying you should to be 'playing the system'.
It is actually a large retailer blatantly denying consumers their rights.

NRCoT actually

 

[therailwayking]

Ah yes! Thanks!
I will quote it in my strongly worded rebuttal to LNER.
Will give them 14 days or I will go to Small Claims.
Done it before, will do it again.
Usually I go to Small Claims over airline related claims, but happily to extend that to LNER if they continue this nonsense of ignoring the NRCoT.

 

[randyrippley]

I quote you the below from the National Rail Conditions of Carriage:

30. Your Right to a Refund If Your Train Is Disrupted and You Choose Not to Travel
30.1 Conditions 30.1 –30.4 cover all Tickets other than Season Tickets, and also apply if you have begun your journey but are unable to complete it due to a delay to, or cancellation of, your service. In such cases, you are permitted to return to your point of origin and still get a refund

You may return an unused Ticket to the original retailer or Train Company from whom it was purchased, where you will be given a full refund with no administration fee charged, if you decide not to travel because the train you intended to use is:
• cancelled, or
• delayed

Note the bit I've highlighted.
From what you've said you chose to not catch the train for other reasons, before it was cancelled or delayed so pedantically you're not entitled to a refund

 

[signed]

so pedantically you're not entitled to a refund

This would not apply if the delay is clear at the departure. Trying to claim a refund train that was not delayed at departure would be fraud

 

[MrJeeves]

Trying to claim a refund train that was not delayed at departure would be fraud

No it wouldn't.

You could travel, find your train is delayed enroute and you'll miss a non-train connection or an event, and decide to return home and abandon the journey.

You are still entitled to a full refund from the retailer in this case.

 

[signed]

You are still entitled to a full refund from the retailer in this case.

I didn't know that, thanks

 

[MrJeeves]

For the benefit of OP, about a year ago I had two tickets bought on board an LNER service that was then terminated short enroute to Edinburgh. Myself and my travelling companion returned to King's Cross and claimed a refund through customer services without issue.

Did you submit the claim through their refund claim form or directly to customer services? My initial email to LNER didn't get me anywhere and I instead had to call them up and they arranged for the refund within just a few minutes. They could access the existing support case started by email so had all the details needed already.

 

[randyrippley]

This would not apply if the delay is clear at the departure. Trying to claim a refund train that was not delayed at departure would be fraud

It makes no difference.
Although he's claiming the refund was due to delay / cancellation, in fact it wasn't: he'd already made the decision not to travel irrespective of any delay and before any delay could have occurred. So he's not entitled to a refund.
My guess is he never even went near the station.
He's just trying to allay his costs following a decision for other reasons not to travel

 

[therailwayking]

It does expressly forbid me from doing what I do.
I do not see a moralistic issue here. The train company keeps my money on Advance tickets I have to junk. This is a quid pro-quo in my view.
Surely up to a Judge to interpet in Court?
What if the delay was a partial reason for not taking the train? An example being I was mulling whether to take the train or not but the delay was the swing factor to not take it.

I used the LNER refund form. I submitted for two trains.
1 was cancelled, the other left 11 minutes late and arrived 12 minutes late.
1 week later, the cancelled refund processed without issue and the late one denied.
I have gone back to [email protected] and will let you know of the update.
I think the intention behind the rules is that you receive a refund if your train is delayed and you do not travel on it.

LNER customer service claiming to me now that this only applies if the train is cancelled.
So this is their metric for decision making.
The rules do not say that though.

 

[Deafdoggie]

It does expressly forbid me from doing what I do.
I do not see a moralistic issue here. The train company keeps my money on Advance tickets I have to junk. This is a quid pro-quo in my view.
Surely up to a Judge to interpet in Court?
What if the delay was a partial reason for not taking the train? An example being I was mulling whether to take the train or not but the delay was the swing factor to not take it.

I used the LNER refund form. I submitted for two trains.
1 was cancelled, the other left 11 minutes late and arrived 12 minutes late.
1 week later, the cancelled refund processed without issue and the late one denied.
I have gone back to [email protected] and will let you know of the update.
I think the intention behind the rules is that you receive a refund if your train is delayed and you do not travel on it.

LNER customer service claiming to me now that this only applies if the train is cancelled.
So this is their metric for decision making.
The rules do not say that though.

Surely there is a "not" missing in the first sentence

 

[800001]

I think the issue may come when ‘refunding tickets’ when a train is late, is how many times Are these refunds happening?

Is it a case, someone, at LNER may look and think that is an unusual amount of refunds from one person, over a period of time, to be refunding?

 

[therailwayking]

Yes sorry missed a 'not'! Thanks for pointing out.
Regards LNER - I rarely buy from them (usually if there is a Halifax 10 percent cashback), rest of the time I buy from GWR.
This is only the second time I have claimed a refund for a late train I have not taken from them. Second rejection from them too!
Claimed multiple from GWR without issue.
I think lesson here is book with GWR! However seems ashame to miss a 10 percent cashback deal (even though the cashback is reversed in instances when I am refunded).

 

[The exile]

You didn’t by any chance put your claim in before the departure time?

 

[therailwayking]

Hahaha no I did not

 

[Baxenden Bank]

You didn’t by any chance put your claim in before the departure time?

Surely that would be acceptable anyway.

The decision to not travel is not necessarily made on the platform 30 seconds before departure.

Say I intend (and perhaps have a reservation for) the 0800 from Baxenden to Manchester for work purposes. Sat at home at 0730 I check my phone and see that the train is cancelled. As a result I decide not to travel (by train anyway) and, whilst fresh in my mind, refund the ticket. A similar argument could also be made for delayed trains, depending upon how much opportunity there may be to make up any lost time or insert an extra train to part cover the cancelled service. Further, if the train was cancelled the night before, I may well seek a refund the night before. If the train was subsequently reinstated that may raise some queries.

We all need to be able to plan our lives (to whatever extent we are comfortable with). There may be costs incurred in getting to the station, such costs can be avoided if it is going to be a wasted journey where you know you will be returning home without taking the train.

One of the problems here is the inability to put any explanatory notes / additional information into a 'free text box' in support of a claim. Given these things are processed automatically no-one would read it anyway!

 

[30907]

Although he's claiming the refund was due to delay / cancellation, in fact it wasn't: he'd already made the decision not to travel irrespective of any delay and before any delay could have occurred.

But no ticket issuer can read the OP's mind. They decided not to travel, the train was delayed.
Slightly reluctantly, I think they are entitled to the refund.

 

[OscarH]

But no ticket issuer can read the OP's mind. They decided not to travel, the train was delayed.
Slightly reluctantly, I think they are entitled to the refund.

Unless they happen to read this thread, I'm sure there aren't many people claiming a disruption refund on that service

(but yes, I agree that in most cases the retailer would be unable to say for certain the reason, and would have to give the benefit of the doubt)