Why do many people think train enthusiasts are sad?

[Class 33]

I've been on a number of trains where some people see train spotters/enthusiasts on the end of the platforms with their cameras or notepads and they say to whoever they're with things like "There's people on the platform there taking photos of trains. Now that is just really SAD!" and shaking their heads and laughing.

Why exactly do a lot of British people think being a train enthusiast/spotter is sad? Yet there is no such attitude apparantly to car or motorcycle enthusiasts. Why is this? Is this just a British thing, or are attitudes similar throughout Europe and the rest of the world?

I've never been an actual "train spotter" myself as in taking notes of engine/unit numbers. I've never taken any notice of what numbers are on the trains, they've never been any interest to me. But I do occasionally get out with my video camera now and again and film trains at stations or onboard the trains. But even then I do feel a bit of a geek when I do due really to the attitudes to train enthusiasts the British public has. So I don't really do it that often.

 

[charlesn132]

I've been on a number of trains where some people see train spotters/enthusiasts on the end of the platforms with their cameras or notepads and they say to whoever they're with things like "There's people on the platform there taking photos of trains. Now that is just really SAD!" and shaking their heads and laughing.

Why exactly do a lot of British people think being a train enthusiast/spotter is sad? Yet there is no such attitude apparantly to car or motorcycle enthusiasts. Why is this? Is this just a British thing, or are attitudes similar throughout Europe and the rest of the world?

I've never been an actual "train spotter" myself as in taking notes of engine/unit numbers. I've never taken any notice of what numbers are on the trains, they've never been any interest to me. But I do occasionally get out with my video camera now and again and film trains at stations or onboard the trains. But even then I do feel a bit of a geek when I do due really to the attitudes to train enthusiasts the British public has. So I don't really do it that often.

Well what if they were called sad for something they liked doing?

People should do whatever they like doing, as long as it doesn't hurt or affect anyone else. (Well that's what I think)

I just like taking photos of things, like trains...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I would make the analogy that an enthusiast trying to see / photograph everything is no different from a football fan trying to watch every match their team plays.

 

[Aictos]

I would make the analogy that an enthusiast trying to see / photograph everything is no different from a football fan trying to watch every match their team plays.

My thoughts exactly, but although I'm more interested in the workings of various traction on the network just because I show a interest in how things work, I must automatically be writing down all the numbers of the wagons, locos, MUs etc...:roll:

 

[Metroland]

Comes from comedians in the 80s.

In fact the word 'sad', in the sense it is used today, comes from Steve Wright in the afternoon, on Radio 1, around 1989 ish, about the same time as Jasper Carrot and Harry Enfield and co were at it with 'spotters'.

Unfortunately 'the sheep' pick up on this sort of thing, and it tends to get repeated. These sorts of insults are probably more common among school age children, who tend to be very focussed on perceptions. It would be used really as an insult among the narrow minded, to 'get at' people - although initially a joke, and a funny one at that. Unfortunately our tree monkey and reptilian ancestry breeds this internal fear and paranoia among people, and with mass media, some people fear anything remotely 'different', albeit interests, colour, sexuality, race, class, and so on. We are tribal. And, unfortunately life is about perception, and the media luvvies (although not exclusively) like to give things stereotypes, it just happens people standing on platforms dressed rather badly in the 1970s and 80s created this 'image', we all get tarred with.

But then a lot of things are deemed as 'sad;, in fact most serious subjects. Dumbing down has been popularised for some time. The term 'anorak' has come to mean a nerdy interest in ANY subject.

Interestingly a lot of enthusiasts will take the mic out of 'spotters' too.. For some reason we all get called 'spotters', even if we've never had an obsessional interest in numbers or even wanting to cover every line, or whatever!

Nevertheless it's all perception and can be laughed off.

 

[moonrakerz]

some people fear anything remotely 'different', albeit interests, colour, sexuality, race, class, and so on. We are tribal.

Now that really is sad - having to resort to "psycho-babble" like that !!!:roll::roll:

 

[Metroland]

I would make the analogy that an enthusiast trying to see / photograph everything is no different from a football fan trying to watch every match their team plays.

Indeed. tune in to 'Talk Sport' or 'Five live' and listen to football supporters go on about it for an hour or more, and compare that to enthusiasts talking 'shop', or indeed any group of enthusiasts or people at work talking through jargon, strategy, past and future results and it's all much of a muchness, and all comes down to whatever floats your boat. Judging other people's interests is really throwing stones in glass houses.

 

[90019]

Yet there is no such attitude apparantly to car or motorcycle enthusiasts. Why is this?

There is. It might not be as obvious, but it's definately there. It's the same for a lot of interests.
It's like a default setting, people who have interests that differ from yours are 'sad', even more so if they aren't interested in the things you are.

Now that really is sad - having to resort to "psycho-babble" like that !!!:roll::roll:

It is, however, the truth.

 

[adamp]

A lot of it is this stereotype people have, as mentioned with the recording of unit numbers etc..
I think it's because its something different, and 'unusual' which people then think ohhhhhhh your so sad. If all their mates did it (like football for example) then it would be a completely different matter.

But personally, I couldn't care less as to what some mankey inbred scrote or immature teenager has to say about my hobby. I'm interested in something your not...now DO ONE.

-Adam

 

[Mr Spock]

I worked with a guy once who often had a go about trainspotters and what a waste it all was.

What was is hobby? He visited football grounds even those where only one man and his dog turned up. I asked him one morning how it went the night before (he had been to a minor, minor league ground) and he said that he would have to go again as the match was abandoned after 80 minutes so he could not count it!

 

[wintonian]

If spotters were to adorn their anoraks with a sponsors logo like First or Virgin and buy a new one from the ticket office every couple of years and started drinking larger instead of real ale would that make it more cool?

 

[tbtc]

Some enthusiasts are sad, not getting away from it.

I'm not saying all enthusiasts, or most enthusiasts, but certainly some...

The public tend to "notice" two types - the ones who spend all day at the end of platforms and the ones who "flail" out of windows like big kids.

They don't notice the rest of us, the ones who might be on the trains, or at the stations, but don't draw attention to themselves.

No point worrying about it, its never held me back, like all hobbies there are different "levels" (e.g. your average football supporter would look down at "groundhoppers")

 

[Lampshade]

It's the same with every hobby though, different things appeal to different people. Some people call me sad for having seen every F1 race since 1996 (I'm a huge F1 fan) but so what? I'm me, not everyone else.

Personally, I think 'spotting' in the traditional sense *is* sad but that's just me, I don't see the appeal of it.

 

[oldrailman]

I've always been interested in railways and taken many photos over the years, but was never a number-taker. I was a despatcher at BHM New Street for 12 years to 2001 and worked with a few kindred spirits but we were outnumbered and ribbed by those staff members to who it was 'just a job'. When I got the job, my first thought was 'great, I'm being paid for working with something I am interested in'. In June 2007 this philosophy paid off when I wrote up my experiences in the job and got it published in 'Traction' magazine. I still take an interest in the modern scene, but alot of the fascination has gone with the end of classic locos and rolling stock.

 

[Old Timer]

Research in recent years has indicated a close link between a number of mental health conditions and trainspotting.

In most cases these people are obvious to the rest of the enthusiast fraternity by their dress and behaviour. I am sure you will all be able to recognise the individuals I speak of, and even enthusiasts recognise them to be "odd".

For some reason, this appears to be a 1970s/80s phenomenon and is especially more noticeable as these individuals have grown into adulthood, yet are still to be seen acting like 10 year olds. There choice of dress has been remarked upon, although not so their lack of normal social skills, nor their recognition of some of Societies other "norms" such as personal hygene, etc.

I have no reason to doubt that these individuals must have been about years ago but it appears that modern Society generates more mental ill health issues amongst itself as the years go by.

One medical researcher has linked trainspotting to forms of autism and obsessive compulsive behaviour.

No doubt such people exist in other hobbies or perhaps it is simply that Railways are one of the very few Industries where the day to day operations are carried out in the full view of the population.

I fly a lot and very rarely indeed do I see anyone that I can immediately recognise as a plane spotter.

 

[4SRKT]

I'd like to quote from Ian Marchant's excellent book 'Parallel Lines' here. He's talking about a conversation he'd had with some enthusiasts (modellers as it happens, but that's not really relevant).

'Many modellers, many railway enthusiasts in general for that matter, feel ashamed, and keep their peccadillo a secret. This is fascist, that people are driven to feel like this by the opprobrium of society. We are being nerdist. What these people do is not shameful. It is entirely harmless. They work at great lengths on artifacts of enormous intricacy. Sometimes beautiful artifacts. The are friendly and nice and highly skilled. But they are not cool. Their value system comes from another time. Cool is of no interest to them, that's all. For us, that's almost a crime. 'Moderns' share an ironic but largely classical worldview. Cool is a classical vice, and the modellers are romantics.....

'.....As popular culture has embraced cool, the idea of anyone finding almost anything remotely interesting has become ludicrous. Cool is a manifestation of the classical: cynical about nature, contemptuous of nostalgia (as opposed to retro). What could be more boring than charm? What is hollower than romance? Those who are interested in such things are anoraks. They have autism. They are wrong in the head. They are out of time. They do not understand what they have done to upset everybody. As one of the exhibitors said to me, "I don't like being categorized as an anorak. I don't see anything wrong in liking trains and buses. I wouldn't want to sit on a riverbank trying to catch a fish, but I don't condemn people who go fishing. That is their hobby. I really don't see why people have to have a go at train enthusiasts."

'Why is it more boring to worry about the angle of repose of coal in your model coalyard than it is to be able to name all the B-sides of Elvis Costello's singles? Why is it bad to be uncool? Well, I'll make you cool, gluey fingered ones! I'll prove that you are.'

And he went on to do so. To my satisfaction at least. I love this book, because it is the only one I have ever read that looks affectionately and seriously at railways through the eyes of a self-confessed 'modern' with all that implies in terms of 'cool'. He is an ageing punk, and instinctive libertarian with an interest in railways. Just like me in fact (although I know a lot more about railways than him........)!

 

[CosherB]

I agree with OT, except for his last point. Manchester Airport has a viewing park (I'm a guide on our Concorde and other aircraft there) and it is a mecca for 'plane spotters'.

Now I've loved aeroplanes (and railways) for all my life, but I've never ever written down a registration or a loco number. Instead, I fly aeroplanes and fire and drive a steam loco.

Spotting is a 'collecting' thing, and can be quite divorced from interest in the subject being spotted. I've come across spotters at an airfield where my aeroplane was based who wanted access to the hangars. So I showed them round. They knew nothing at all about the interesting vintage aeroplanes within, nor were they interested in my informing them. They simply wanted to 'bag' the registrations. I've sometimes arrived at the Viewing Park in the morning for a stint of Concorde tours and seen guys (it's rarely girls) in their cars, airband radios on, binoculars to hand, and their 'spotting books' to tick off the registrations as they arrive or depart the adjacent runway. Signs of autism and other conditions are often apparent among these folk.

Beleive me, both aviation and railways attract some odd folk as decribed correctly by OT. But they are spotters, not folk who are interested in the railway or aviation on a deeper level.

Problem is, the public don't see that essential difference. Tell someone you're a railway enthusiast, and they have you down immediately as a saddo ticking off loco numbers on a platform end in an Ian Allan book.

 

[The Planner]

Ive never personally understood the number taking aspect of it. Ticking off the numbers of locos etc just seems a bit odd to me as there is nothing really tangible to it. You dont have anything you have "collected". Other hobbies or pastimes which can also be considered a bit sad, like stamp collecting, you have something physical you can show to other like minded people.

 

[the sniper]

I fly a lot and very rarely indeed do I see anyone that I can immediately recognise as a plane spotter.

Unless you catch your plane from the end of the runway, why would you see them? From my experiences, plane spotters don't normally hang around inside airport terminals. If they're to be found anywhere near the airport buildings, they're to be found in viewing galleries away from regular passenger areas.

I'd personally say there are nearly as many oddball plane spotter as there are train spotters, though I've been out of the aircraft 'scene' for a good few years now, so that may have changed.

EDIT: Btw, I might as well point out that I've never collected numbers of planes or trains in all my life, other then noting one or two down to find out something about them (i.e. destination) on the internet that night.

 

[Old Timer]

That is a nice quote.

As a professional one thing I have noticed I have to say is an increase in the number of staff who tend to sneer at enthusiasts.

Inevitably these people tend to be attracted by the pay rather than the job, which is of course the exact opposite of when I joined, when it was the norm to have been a spotter prior to joining indeed in many ways it was welcomed. Of course then we had a different Railway environment. Far better than todays.

For what it is worth I have no problem with enthusiasts, and in the past have been able to turn the proverbial Nelson, or take someone along to get (particularly) wagon photos. Unfortunately such opportunities now are gone.

 

[jopsuk]

The attitude towards enthusiasts is nothing special- it is the same attitude towards most collecting/spotting/"geeky" type hobbies. Even with football fans, the ones that go out of their way to be goldmines of info, or collect programmes, or make a point of visiting lots of grounds, get called "sad". Anyone with a slightly obsessional hobby, especially if involves something other than "high art", is tarred with a similar brush. Rail enthusiasts aren't anything special in this regard- other than the extreme examples being perhaps a little more likely to be themselves spotted in public (the classic stereotype of the socially awkward* guy with poor personal hygiene, thick specs taped together, standing at the end of the platform with notebook and flask) despite the ones that are seen being far from representative.

 

[90019]

Ive never personally understood the number taking aspect of it.

I think that answers the original question quite well.

I guess that in most cases, people understand that everyone's interests differ and have no issues with it other than thinking it's a little odd.

 

[richw]

Why exactly do a lot of British people think being a train enthusiast/spotter is sad? Yet there is no such attitude apparantly to car or motorcycle enthusiasts. Why is this? Is this just a British thing, or are attitudes similar throughout Europe and the rest of the world?
.

many of the boy racers arent actually "racers" just enthusiasts who get labelled in the same category because they meet in a car park and discuss each others pride and joy, the number of times i've heard the local enthusiast car club labelled as boy racers/ chavs etc because they sit all evening in a car park i've lost count. ok a very minimal number of them are boy racers, but all of these enthusiasts get labelled in the same stereotype!

 

[asylumxl]

Some enthusiasts are sad, not getting away from it.

I'm not saying all enthusiasts, or most enthusiasts, but certainly some...

I couldn't agree more. Particularly those with usernames that start with 3 and end with 1... with 740 between the two... And who have things about "Vacs Haulaged" and being a "C50A Shareholder" in their signature...

They are truly the saddest folk of all...

 

[Birdbrain]

Its a very interesting topic, and its good to read the views of enthusiasts on the topic. The way I see it, there is no point to me taking down numbers of trains I see on the network because there is no need for me to make a record of what was on what and where. If you really want to find out there are systems like TRUST that can get the information anyway.

Personally, I like taking photos simply as a memory of days out/trips/holidays I have had using the railways, the trains I saw and the ones I went. Of course its always handy to have the camera to record unusual workings to share.

Saying this, it varies from person to person, so some people get different things out of the hobby than others.

All good fun really

 

[4SRKT]

A lot of people on here saying they don't understand the point of taking down numbers, and being quivk to point out that they don'e do that themsleves. But isn't that just it? There's no need for anyone to see the 'point' of anyone else's harmless pastime, nor for them to be judgmental. Seems to me in their own way many railway enthusiasts are almost as judgmental as society at large, and that doesn't do us any favours my friends.

 

[Greenback]

A lot of people on here saying they don't understand the point of taking down numbers. But isn't that just it? There's no need for anyone to see the 'point' of anyone else's harmless pastime, nor for them to be judgmental.

Correct. I'm sure that there are many people who have hobbies and interests that I might consider sad, if I was a judgemental person For instance, I;ve never understood the appeal of stmap colelcting, but I have nothing against anyone who enjoys that hobby, or indeed, any other.

My hobbies include acting, darts (Greenback is my nickname!), which I'm sure many people might think of sad. But I don't care, and nor should anyone else!

 

[wintonian]

But at the same time it could be another way of saying "I don't understand why people do this, but I'm open to/ interested in finding out and hearing why they do"?

I know it is from my perspective.

 

[Metroland]

There's certainly some people who are just interested in numbers, and once they finish with trains will move onto (usually) buses and planes. There is a close tie between spotters and Aspergers syndrome: A love of routines, collections, people who are usually good at mathematics rather than the creative arts. People who are black and white, and not grey, do not understand metaphor, irony, and subtleties of the language.

Aspergers has been linked to transport in general, computers, sci-fi, animals, astronomy, chemistry and numbers/mathematics. It's also linked to obsessive compulsive disorder: problems with hording, drinking, obsessions with routines, brands, objects. It's not an illness, it's a way of thinking. The opposite would be the world of the musician or artist, who gets off on sounds, concepts, feel, touch, texture. Then there are those in the middle, interested in geography, politics, possibly business, economics, who look for strategy, the meanings and understanding behind data, or have an interest in the built environment or humanities. Others enjoy the practical aspect of machines, and construction, mechanics and how things work. There are also romantic enthusiasts who write novels, or enjoying painting trains.

All of the above can be rail enthusiasts.

I think the point is, there are a million shades of enthusiast from all walks of life.

 

[Simon Poole]

Trainspotting is an passion that cannot be explain! i grew up with them when i was a child onwards, i'm 24 and started taking photos of them since Nobvember 16th 2009, but it's more than taking numbers, photos and videos, it's chance to see the entire United Kingdom by rail, this time last year, travelling to London and seeing London was an dream but the dream came true on Feburary 19th thanks to London Midland using their Great Escape, this year i been to places that i never visited and this time last year were like london, just an dream

Trainspotting to me is more than taking numbers and photos, it gives you an chance to go out and travel to new places, it's an hobby that isn't frustating and relaxes you, some days you can go out and take photos or videos and you don't know what you could expect!