Why do some banner repeater signals only have the letter 'R' Rather than 'BR'?

[Prerail]

I understand that distant signals have the letter R after the signal ident to identify the fact that it is a distant signal. Can anyone tell me why there seem to be a few Banner repeater signals which have an 'R' rather than a 'BR' on their ident plates? for example T238 and T241, which are controlled by Tyneside, both have banner repeaters, however both have the letter R rather than BR.

 

[Railsigns]

Because they predate the current practice for identification.

 

[Annetts key]

Due to different practices and standards that predate Railtrack and Network Rail. Some banners had P as a suffix for example (BR Western Region practice).

 

[CAF397]

Welcome to Banner Repeaters/Provisional Junction Indicators on the same post.

BR/BJI....

 

[Prerail]

Ah brilliant. Thank you all for your answers. I has assumed that distant signals were created and allocated the suffix 'R' long before banner repeaters became a thing, so i thought the 'R' would have been reserved for that. I was just surprised to see the letter R on a banner repeater signal.

 

[507020]

Because they are merely ‘Rail’ rather than ‘British Rail’ signals, so either foreign in origin or installed since privatisation

Was it just me that used to think think ‘BR’ on signal posts stood for ‘British Rail’ and not ‘Banner Repeater’?

 

[Annetts key]

Ah brilliant. Thank you all for your answers. I has assumed that distant signals were created and allocated the suffix 'R' long before banner repeaters became a thing, so i thought the 'R' would have been reserved for that. I was just surprised to see the letter R on a banner repeater signal.

Banner repeaters have been around for a surprising long time. Until the fibre optic type was introduced on my area, all the banner signals were electro-mechanical (yes, a mechanical arm that pivoted) even though the signals they were repeating were all colour light. We had four of them. A fifth was added a couple of years later. Now all on my area are LED type (and we have more than ever).

 

[Jimini]

Banner repeaters have been around for a surprising long time. Until the fibre optic type was introduced on my area, all the banner signals were electro-mechanical (yes, a mechanical arm that pivoted) even though the signals they were repeating were all colour light. We had four of them. A fifth was added a couple of years later. Now all on my area are LED type (and we have more than ever).

I remember the watching the one on the platform at Ifield heading up towards Crawley, about 20 years or so ago. Used to make a nice twanging / bouncing sound when the signal went red and the banner dropped to horizontal when the electromagnet(?) switched off.

*Edit* Just googled it quickly -- pretty sure it was one of these types:

 

[Annetts key]

I remember the watching the one on the platform at Ifield heading up towards Crawley, about 20 years or so ago. Used to make a nice twanging / bouncing sound when the signal went red and the banner dropped to horizontal when the electromagnet(?) switched off.

*Edit* Just googled it quickly -- pretty sure it was one of these types:


View attachment 143374

Yes, that’s the type. And yes, they used an electromagnet to move the arm. Typically two 110V filament lamps were hidden behind the arm to back light the white painted inside rear of the case.

 

[Rescars]

Yes, that’s the type. And yes, they used an electromagnet to move the arm. Typically two 110V filament lamps were hidden behind the arm to back light the white painted inside rear of the case.

Very satisfying sound. Much more refined than the clang that used to reverberate (and may still) from the similarly sized running line disc signals at Worcester Shrub Hill!

 

[John Webb]

Ah brilliant. Thank you all for your answers. I has assumed that distant signals were created and allocated the suffix 'R' long before banner repeaters became a thing, so i thought the 'R' would have been reserved for that. I was just surprised to see the letter R on a banner repeater signal.

Distant signals in semaphore-signalled areas, with a few exceptions, can't be considered to be a 'Repeater' in the same way as a banner repeater. The latter refers only to the state of the next signal, whereas a distant may need two, three or even more of the following 'stop' signals to be all at 'clear' before the distant signal can be at 'clear'. Even when converted to a colour light signal (as the LMS in particular had a policy of doing) they were worked by their own lever and were numbered as that lever, not as a 'repeater'.

 

[Rescars]

In semaphore days to improve sighting, there were some locations with two signal arms on the same post, one arm duplicating the other. IIRC one of the most spectacular examples was the LNWR gantry at Rugby. Presumably both arms were worked by the same lever. Were these duplicating signals classed as repeaters?

 

[MarkyT]

Distant signals in semaphore-signalled areas, with a few exceptions, can't be considered to be a 'Repeater' in the same way as a banner repeater. The latter refers only to the state of the next signal, whereas a distant may need two, three or even more of the following 'stop' signals to be all at 'clear' before the distant signal can be at 'clear'. Even when converted to a colour light signal (as the LMS in particular had a policy of doing) they were worked by their own lever and were numbered as that lever, not as a 'repeater'.

Latest standards for new schemes also require a TCB area distant signal to have its own unique number rather than previous regional practices in colour light areas of identifying them by the number of the next stop signal suffixed by R or P. What identifies a signal as not having a stop aspect today is the 'delta plate', a triangle symbol pointing upwards just above the signal number.

 

[Annetts key]

In semaphore days to improve sighting, there were some locations with two signal arms on the same post, one arm duplicating the other. IIRC one of the most spectacular examples was the LNWR gantry at Rugby. Presumably both arms were worked by the same lever. Were these duplicating signals classed as repeaters?

No, I don’t think they were considered repeaters. I’ve never worked on any installations like this. Co-acting is I think the term that would apply.

In mechanical interlocking, a distant signal had its own lever and hence it’s own interlocking. And most mechanical box worked signals (semaphore signals and colour light signals) were not fitted with a number/ID plate. Regardless, they were always identified by the lever they were worked by.

However, as electrical and electro-mechanical technology allowed power signal boxes to control much larger areas, in two aspect signal areas, much of the control circuitry for a “distant” or colour light repeater was common with that of the section (“stop”) signal. Further, no independent control to the signaller was provided for colour light “distant” repeater signals. Hence the term repeater, and hence it having the same number as the stop signal, just with a suffix of ‘R’ being added.

A banner also shares much of the circuitry with the signal it’s repeating, so again, it had the same number as that of the main signal, and, depending on where you were, and what year it was, it had a suffix of either ’R’, ‘P’ or ‘BR’.

The only real time that there was any confusion, would be in the rare situation of a two aspect colour light signal needing a banner, but which also had a colour light repeater/distant.

 

[Railsigns]

The Scottish Region used an "R" suffix for distant signals and an "R" prefix for banner repeaters. There used to be a (fishtailed) banner repeater at Alexandra Parade (Bellgrove S.B. area) that repeated a distant signal BL104R and was therefore identified as BLR104R.

 

[Rescars]

No, I don’t think they were considered repeaters. I’ve never worked on any installations like this. Co-acting is I think the term that would apply.

In mechanical interlocking, a distant signal had its own lever and hence it’s own interlocking. And most mechanical box worked signals (semaphore signals and colour light signals) were not fitted with a number/ID plate. Regardless, they were always identified by the lever they were worked by.

However, as electrical and electro-mechanical technology allowed power signal boxes to control much larger areas, in two aspect signal areas, much of the control circuitry for a “distant” or colour light repeater was common with that of the section (“stop”) signal. Further, no independent control to the signaller was provided for colour light “distant” repeater signals. Hence the term repeater, and hence it having the same number as the stop signal, just with a suffix of ‘R’ being added.

A banner also shares much of the circuitry with the signal it’s repeating, so again, it had the same number as that of the main signal, and, depending on where you were, and what year it was, it had a suffix of either ’R’, ‘P’ or ‘BR’.

The only real time that there was any confusion, would be in the rare situation of a two aspect colour light signal needing a banner, but which also had a colour light repeater/distant.

Thank you. Co-acting of course - not quite the same thing as a repeater, but an alternative solution to the same challenge of problematic sighting.