Why do XC services wait so long at stations?

[ic250]

Planning to make a trip from the South-West up to the Midlands in a few weeks, I had a look at real-time trains to see where the train would go, and I was amazed at how wasteful Cross-Country trains are with their timetables.

Look, for example, at this:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C73173/2014/08/10/advanced

The 0930 service from Penzance to Glasgow is timetabled to take 12h and 44 minutes, which must surely make it one of the longest (in terms of time) journeys in the UK. But on closer inspection the reason why it takes so long is because of long dwell times at stations en route:

Plymouth - 11 mins
Bristol TM - 4 mins
Cheltenham - 13 mins
Birmingham NS - 26 mins (!)
Derby - 6 mins
Sheffield - 5 mins
Edinburgh - 16 mins
etc. etc.

By only dwelling for 1-2mins at every station, at least 2 hours could be shaved off this journey.

I know few will travel the whole route, and XC services are generally there to mop up as many passengers as they can by covering large distances, but surely this is wasteful in terms of timetabling and resources? Does it take so long to change crews en route? And if the problem with Birmingham New Street is platform capacity, why do XC trains (almost all of them) dwell there for such a long time? Its bad for passengers choking on the fumes at the platform edge at the very least.

I wonder if there's a sensible explanation for this.

(PS, I will now not be getting this particular train as it takes so freakin' long)

 

[Domh245]

Pathing? Maybe the only reason for the extended waits at places like plymouth are because there is a flurry of activity in terms of train movements, and the XC service has been timetabled to let them go first. Also, something like a 4 minute dwell time isn't all that generous. Of that 4 minutes, about a minute is doing the doors and the other 3 are for allowing a large amount of people and luggage to board what may well be a 4 car voyager! Last though is that it may be allowing for connections from other services.

 

[hassaanhc]

Extra dwell time can also be used to cover delays, so it could arrive into Cheltenham about 10 minutes late and still leave right time

 

[Iskra]

It looks like timetable 'padding' to allow the train to make up for delays.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The wait at New St can be explained with the diversion via Stourbridge - it takes so long it loses its original path from Birmingham it would take if it followed the normal route, so it needs to wait until the path in the next hour to depart. Also note that train runs today only - IIRC most traditional CrossCountry services will normally have 5-10 mins at New St maximum.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I should add more generally a lot will be recovery time: the nature of their routes means delays could accumulate very quickly (e.g. lose a path through Birmingham and you could also lose one from Sheffield!), so the extra time at stations helps to limit this.

 

[IanD]

...but surely this is wasteful in terms of timetabling and resources?

Perhaps it's an efficient use of timetabling and resources, using paths that otherwise wouldn't be used if XC didn't exist?

 

[swt_passenger]

The OP's question is being applied to a train with massive allowances for engineering work diversions - hence the huge dwell at New St, where it seems to be taking about ¾ of an hour longer than the normal running time from Bristol, due to the above mentioned diversion, so AFAICS it is being delayed intentionally and picking up its normal timings on departure from New St.

Because the diversions are known long in advance they are printed in the XC timetable so may not be immediately obvious.

1S51 normally starts at Plymouth at 1225
This dated variation of 1S51 passes Plymouth at 1114, an hour and 11 minutes earlier.

 

[The Planner]

Standard dwell for a Voyager is 1.5 or 2 minutes apart from when either a reversal or crew change is involved when it is longer. Some stations like New St require 3 minutes as a minimum. The philosophy of XC is A to B and B to C really quickly with larger dwells at B. They don't like being caught up behind something en route or to be pathed out for whatever reason as they are of the opinion passengers see going slowly or waiting outside stations as worse than sitting at the station itself.

 

[Tubeboy]

Like a lot of long distance services, you have infrequent travellers. They get on with two huge wheely suitcases and then dawdle in the vestibule or the gangway, which hinders people getting on and delays the service.

 

[Welshman]

I think that as folks have suggested, the very nature of a Cross-Country service means it passes through several important traffic centres on its route - Bristol, Birmingham, Derby, Leeds, to name but four, and the extra time is to try to ensure that if its a few minutes late on its last leg, it will make the next crucial timing point on time.

 

[nw1]

Standard dwell for a Voyager is 1.5 or 2 minutes apart from when either a reversal or crew change is involved when it is longer. Some stations like New St require 3 minutes as a minimum. The philosophy of XC is A to B and B to C really quickly with larger dwells at B. They don't like being caught up behind something en route or to be pathed out for whatever reason as they are of the opinion passengers see going slowly or waiting outside stations as worse than sitting at the station itself.

Something I personally would agree with btw... there's nothing more annoying than going along at snail speed behind a slow train. Much better to hang around at a station where you could leave the train and have a wander if the booked waiting time is sufficiently long. Actually my worst experiences of this have been on XC, albeit on a diversionary route - whenever they send them round via Guildford and Havant on Sundays, they seem to be pathed directly behind the Portsmouth to Southampton SWT stopper from Cosham onwards, and they crawl along taking as long as the actual stopper does. Maybe if it wasn't for railway fragmentation, and XC and SWT were run by the same people (or managed by a public body, as in Bavaria where there are several TOCs in addition to DB but the whole thing is integrated) then on engineering work days they'd retime the SWT stopper so it goes out just behind the XC - I'd guess it would only have to be delayed by 3 or 4 mins based on how quickly the XC gets caught behind it and the lines aren't exactly at full capacity on a Sunday.

 

[Welshman]

Something I personally would agree with btw... there's nothing more annoying than going along at snail speed behind a slow train. Much better to hang around at a station where you could leave the train and have a wander if the booked waiting time is sufficiently long. Actually my worst experiences of this have been on XC, albeit on a diversionary route - whenever they send them round via Guildford and Havant on Sundays, they seem to be pathed directly behind the Portsmouth to Southampton SWT stopper from Cosham onwards, and they crawl along taking as long as the actual stopper does. Maybe if it wasn't for railway fragmentation, and XC and SWT were run by the same people (or managed by a public body, as in Bavaria where there are several TOCs in addition to DB but the whole thing is integrated) then on engineering work days they'd retime the SWT stopper so it goes out just behind the XC - I'd guess it would only have to be delayed by 3 or 4 mins based on how quickly the XC gets caught behind it and the lines aren't exactly at full capacity on a Sunday.

Unfortunately, that seems commonplace when diversions are planned , ie the "regular" service gets priority.

I remember two recently-diverted journeys by Virgin trains - one from North Wales to Euston diverted via Middlewich, where we were held for about 10 minutes in the loop at Sandbach waiting for two Northern stoppers to pass before we could access the up line to Crewe.

On the second occasion, and on the same stretch of line, a diverted Virgin to Preston was pathed immediately behind a Northern Crewe-Manchester stopper, which meant a very slow journey until Wilmslow, where we could gain the Styal loop.

I suppose once Network Rail has allotted certain paths to TOCs, they stay allotted, regardless.

 

[The Planner]

We won't re-write WTT paths to accommodate diverted trains unless we really have to, it costs too much in compensation payments. It also means all the other TOCs run on STP timetables where they then have to fork out on advertising etc... Their view is "why should we move, it doesn't affect us". It is the right thing to do for the odd weekend.

 

[Class 170101]

It is indeed all about squatters rights BUT as you have shown it can lead to a sub-optimal timetable with non-stop traisn behind stopping ones.

Additionally in the past this may have also been eased by putting extra stops in the fast train and to slow it down just a little or the stops evenly spread between the two trains so they both run at the same speed but a faster journey time between beginning and end points over all.

 

[route:oxford]

Sometimes engineering works results in a quicker service!

See this thread I started this time last year where the journey from Edinburgh to Brum via the East Coast was cut to just 4h16m due to engineering:-

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=87627

 

[Mark62]

Reduce the waiting time and then the overall journey time comes down. Result? Extra stock is needed. Millions was spent upgrading the line between Sheffield and Bristol. Sadly it was a waste of money as overall journey times are not much quicker now than when the peaks were running at 90mph. XC won't pay for leasing extra stock, it dents their profits. I have seen trains running an hour late at Birmingham and still arrive on time in Edinburgh. So there are plenty of high speed paths available when XC is faced with having to pay fines and compensation for late running trains.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Planning to make a trip from the South-West up to the Midlands in a few weeks, I had a look at real-time trains to see where the train would go, and I was amazed at how wasteful Cross-Country trains are with their timetables.

Look, for example, at this:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C73173/2014/08/10/advanced

The 0930 service from Penzance to Glasgow is timetabled to take 12h and 44 minutes, which must surely make it one of the longest (in terms of time) journeys in the UK. But on closer inspection the reason why it takes so long is because of long dwell times at stations en route:

Plymouth - 11 mins
Bristol TM - 4 mins
Cheltenham - 13 mins
Birmingham NS - 26 mins (!)
Derby - 6 mins
Sheffield - 5 mins
Edinburgh - 16 mins
etc. etc.

By only dwelling for 1-2mins at every station, at least 2 hours could be shaved off this journey.

I know few will travel the whole route, and XC services are generally there to mop up as many passengers as they can by covering large distances, but surely this is wasteful in terms of timetabling and resources? Does it take so long to change crews en route? And if the problem with Birmingham New Street is platform capacity, why do XC trains (almost all of them) dwell there for such a long time? Its bad for passengers choking on the fumes at the platform edge at the very least.

I wonder if there's a sensible explanation for this.

(PS, I will now not be getting this particular train as it takes so freakin' long)

To be fair it is because it was a Sunday, where engineering work takes place etc. Usually at Birmingham they only have about ten minutes dwell.

And Cheltenham is a surprise as it's usually just a pick up and go, not usually as long as 13 mins!

 

[Wyvern]

I think that as folks have suggested, the very nature of a Cross-Country service means it passes through several important traffic centres on its route - Bristol, Birmingham, Derby, Leeds, to name but four, and the extra time is to try to ensure that if its a few minutes late on its last leg, it will make the next crucial timing point on time.

The most reasonable I reckon. The cross country route had always been notorious for its unreliability until the new slackened timetable was introduced. The acceleration of the Voyager helps.

Back in the late 'fifties I would regularly go to Derby station at 8.15 on a Sunday night to catch the 7.15 to Bristol. Only missed it once.