Why does everyone want to be a driver?

[Metroland]

It's by far the most oversubscribed railway post and very hard to get into. Your job is to obey speed restrictions, timetables and signals, rules and that's what you must do, there is little or no decision making, which might not suit some people. If you like problem solving and decision making, control/signalling staff is far more involved on the operations side.

The point is, its not hard to get a job on the railways with the right skills, but driver is quite hard to get into because its so oversubscribed. About 3-400 applications for one post. Ironically, preserved railways are crying out for drivers, and there is a much more of an enthusiast atmos..

If you really want to work for the railways go for areas that are under subscribed: especially stuff like engineering. At least it keeps your options open.

We have big shortages in the engineering sector is this county, especially pway, S&T, OHL and so on. We also have shortages of Transport planners/economists and many other professional transport related posts.

So when preserved railways are so short, and the railways are so short in other areas, why go for a drivers post?

 

[ukrob]

I don't see why someone should NOT apply for a post just because other areas are undersubscribed. It is the individuals choice.

Many jobs in huge numbers of industries have hundreds of applicants for one position, I don't see why this is any different.

 

[Metroland]

I'm just interested to why everyone wants to do that job (in a paid way) rather than so many other things which they have far more chance of getting. I understand, each to their own, but whenever anyone talks about railway work, most people want to become drivers, why? Just interested that's all.

BTW, this is a likely interview question, so, I would expect people that do want to become drivers to have a good answer than go on the defensive! It's in no way a criticism, I just wonder why someone wouldn't take a job in some other area they could get into (I'm not saying they shouldn't apply, just keep their options open) and if they really want to do it, join preserved railways who are very short. For example, the NYMR is on about curtailing services because of a shortage of footplate staff.

It's rather like these people that have their heart set on getting into the media, when there is so much competition. The media industry is tiny in this county, only London and Manchester are centres these days, well, Leeds to an extent. But it doesn't stop more people leaving with media degrees every year than jobs in the media. With a bit of lateral thinking, you can write books, do podcasts, blogs, make films etc and show them to a wide audience and have most of the fun. We can all be 'the media' these days and you can be probably be a driver too.

 

[theblackwatch]

I suspect the answer is the salary! £30k+ for a job with little or no decision making as you put it sounds rather good.

 

[Techniquest]

I've personally wanted to be a driver since 1996 myself, and since I did the driver experience course on D1013 a few years ago I know for fact that's what I want to do.

So imagine my surprise when I got a letter through the post in February 2008 inviting me to Newport to do the tests! Yes, they wrote to me since they had my stuff on file, not me writing to them!

I actually got a lot further than most people in that I not only got past the tests with better results than I expected, I got to the structured interview, but my lack of 'life experience' shot me down in that. Which really did annoy the hell out of me that day. Not even a trip on my beloved traction later on could cheer me up.

Still, some time after, I realised that there would be other opportunities eventually and that there was a need for getting more experience in all sorts of areas in the meantime.

As for why I want to be a driver? I'd love the responsibility and the knowing I've driven hundreds or even thousands (depending on the route, traction and number of runs) of commuters to/from work as well as plenty of leisure passengers on non-work trips and such. I actually enjoy working on my own (I do enjoy working amongst teams as well I hasten to add) and would take pride in doing a damn well important job well.

(Please note, the above paragraph would not be my final answer to such a question if it came up at an interview, it was written as it came to mind during this post)

It may be an oversubscribed job, but it's a dream job for me. I've tried things like signalling via SimSig and as much as it can be enjoyable it can be quite annoying. Especially on this poncy laptop I've got currently which holds as much charge as a chocolate teapot holds water and the charger fails to work properly...

One day the opportunity to go for a driver job will come up for me, but ideally I'd like to start on the gateline/in the ticket office somewhere and work up. That way I could expand upon the customer service/retail experience already under my belt, get the experience of the railway industry and move into other safety-critical roles such as a TM and then further up. Obviously this would be some time away, but for now I'm due to start a new job on Tuesday morning which I intend to be in for quite some time!

As for preserved railways, I just don't have that blood in me. Not exactly any preserved railways around here either, the nearest being the East Somerset Railway and unless you drive, you aren't getting there very easily at all! That and I still enjoy the mainline yet, although it's only going to be a few years before I lose interest there.

 

[Metroland]

I suspect the answer is the salary! £30k+ for a job with little or no decision making as you put it sounds rather good.

Ah but a hell of a lot of responsibility! Which isn't always fun. I've seen drivers lose their jobs in seconds by simply misunderstanding what was said to them.

 

[Tom C]

It's by far the most oversubscribed railway post and very hard to get into. Your job is to obey speed restrictions, timetables and signals, rules and that's what you must do, there is little or no decision making, which might not suit some people. If you like problem solving and decision making, control/signalling staff is far more involved on the operations side.

The point is, its not hard to get a job on the railways with the right skills, but driver is quite hard to get into because its so oversubscribed. About 3-400 applications for one post. Ironically, preserved railways are crying out for drivers, and there is a much more of an enthusiast atmos..

I do agree Metroland!

I find it hard to understand why you would want to take a job which to me sounds rather boring.................until you see the bits that come with being a driver!

The difference in salary between ground level grades and a drivers is a country mile and is getting bigger with every passing year. The terms & conditions make your eyes water ( if you are working elsewhere) and its also heavilly unionised compared with other posts

The other problem with taking a Network Rail post these days is that you get virtually no travel facilities and whilst that may not seem like much it does make a big difference.

If you really want to work for the railways go for areas that are under subscribed: especially stuff like engineering. At least it keeps your options open.

Again, the little extras like travel facilities are not there if you take a Network Rail post. Again, we may disagree about how much that might impact on recruitment from the outside but certainly once you are in a job with a TOC it does make you stop and think. Something simple like your residential pass is gone and that does make a difference when you make a career decision.

I am pleased that the TOC's are going back to apprentices and I hope that people who want a career on the railway seriously think about doing this as it is a skill for life and is worthwhile. For the older hands though it is something which would go by the wayside, especially with the drop in salary.

We have big shortages in the engineering sector is this county, especially pway, S&T, OHL and so on. We also have shortages of Transport planners/economists and many other professional transport related posts.

With the train planners and service delivery style posts there is an insistance for a resume as long as your arm. Sadly it seems as if you need a degree to go into this field which is frustrating as experience on the ground would play a big role in how we plan our resources. I have been trying to get into this field for 5 years now but everytime the vacancies come out they always have strict requirements such as degrees which sadly counts out a lot of railwayman and sadly experience doesn't count for much either.

My experience in this comes from someone who is IN the industry. As time creeps by your choice of career progression gets watered down. Where we used to have positions such as Trainee Train Planner, this seems to have gone down the river and TOC's are more and more recruiting graduates. Management posts are now being filled by graduates who have no experience in the field but an established member of staff gets left out because they do not have a suitable resume. So really if you are on the ground, the shining star remains Driver and will continue to do so in my opinion. If we get to the stage where Network Rail are on a level playing field with the TOC's then you might start to see staff moving into the roles you mention and I truely hope that happens one day!

 

[37401]

if this was the era where 37`s 20`s 50`s and 47`s were still in normal service i would of said "To give my loco a bit of thrash" but we dont now so my answer is because i have a real intrest in the job and its something ive wanted to do since i was 6

 

[Pumbaa]

Thanks Metroland for raising this thread, and thanks to those who have already made valuable contributions.

If I'm honest though, I think it stems from the childhood fascination that some people have with being a train driver. Being a driver signals authority (excuse the pun) and the enormous responsibility they have of ferrying passengers around each day. In short, most people who are hell bent on being drivers have not (in my eyes) given anything else much consideration, stupidly.

I've been attracted to the planning side of the railways for a very long time now, and as a prolific daydreamer, I have literally reams of visual improvements that I would wish to make should I end up with the power to do so. For me, planning, and the ability to change the railways is far more of an attractive prospect than sitting alone in your cab for hours on end.

Having gained an economics degree, and worked in various capacities from speculation, director of finance, the MD of my own company and so on in an extremely short life span (I still qualify for 16-25 railcard!), I intend to get a job on the railways after I've gone back to Uni (because I'm bored now), probably as a guard/TM, because I want to feel what the railways are doing, and then move on to change it. Strange, but hey.

 

[Stacey]

Isn't being a train driver one of those things everyone wants to do as a kid? When I was younger it was a toss up between train driver and airline pilot...
The youngest age for a pilot's license was 12 (private airstrip or whatever) but due to non affordance of that, I got into railways...everyone has a goal though.. I've wanted a job on the railway since I was very young but only just got one now... some people manage to fall straight into driving I dunno, I just reckon its got something to do with that and the money too.

 

[mumrar]

It does come from childhood, after all no-one tells their parents at 4 they want to be a PF inspector. I'm a guard and it's the natural progression on the railway, although due to a minor problem my heart wasn't in it lol. The money aspect is great if you're a driver and horrible if not. When drivers and guards were first restructured the difference between our salaries was 25%, next year it is set to stand at 100%. The average yearly increase for the two grades over the last 14 years (this is purely Central Trains staff) is 3.23% for guards and 6.76% for drivers. Come 2010 XC drivers (formerly Central) will be on £50k while guards may get £25-26k, crazy to think it used to be a £4k difference. It's been an expensive heart problem you know

 

[Bayum]

For a lot of people, it could also be the sheer thrill of it all.

Imagine, being at the front of a fully loaded Voyager (not hard to come by!!) or HST or 91, and screaming along at 125mph on the way to Birmingham/London, wherever, and having all that behind you, and all that speed. People get it from cars and bikes - why not trains?

 

[The Planner]

The other problem with taking a Network Rail post these days is that you get virtually no travel facilities and whilst that may not seem like much it does make a big difference.

Again, the little extras like travel facilities are not there if you take a Network Rail post. Again, we may disagree about how much that might impact on recruitment from the outside but certainly once you are in a job with a TOC it does make you stop and think. Something simple like your residential pass is gone and that does make a difference when you make a career decision.

60% off a season ticket (still capped at a certain level) is the best you will get at NR, but new applicants know that they dont get free travel so they are not really in any position to moan about it.

With the train planners and service delivery style posts there is an insistance for a resume as long as your arm. Sadly it seems as if you need a degree to go into this field which is frustrating as experience on the ground would play a big role in how we plan our resources. I have been trying to get into this field for 5 years now but everytime the vacancies come out they always have strict requirements such as degrees which sadly counts out a lot of railwayman and sadly experience doesn't count for much either.

Id disagree with that too, you certainly dont need a degree to get in. Our office has somewhere in the region of 90 odd people, I could count on two hands those with a degree. I really hope you have not applied purely on that basis !! Unfortunately people with experience tend to have higher salary demands so wont get the jobs when they can get someone off the street for several thousand less.

If we get to the stage where Network Rail are on a level playing field with the TOC's then you might start to see staff moving into the roles you mention and I truely hope that happens one day!

NR will never be on the same playing field as a TOC, we will never get free travel, Coucher has already said that.

 

[37401]

after all no-one tells their parents at 4 they want to be a PF inspector.

Sounds like a challenge to me mumrar

 

[Aictos]

I've always wanted to work on the railways ideally as a driver but seeing first hand how demanding the job can be, I'm more then happy letting someone drive and take a backseat, that's not saying I wouldn't pass up the opportunity if given, just my current position as a platform dispatcher is good enough for me failing that a potential career as a guard or a signaller hasn't been ruled out.

I've done a spell as a guard on a preserved railway and it's every bit as exciting and fulfilling as being a driver, I've learnt about the different braking systems, coupling up, dispatching and the dreaded paperwork but the highlight was riding behind my favourite loco which was a 31, my favourite train to work was the DMU although I must have been one of the few to actually enjoyed working it.

 

[FusionRail]

I've always wanted to work on the railways ideally as a driver but seeing first hand how demanding the job can be, I'm more then happy letting someone drive and take a backseat, that's not saying I wouldn't pass up the opportunity if given, just my current position as a platform dispatcher is good enough for me failing that a potential career as a guard or a signaller hasn't been ruled out.

I've done a spell as a guard on a preserved railway and it's every bit as exciting and fulfilling as being a driver, I've learnt about the different braking systems, coupling up, dispatching and the dreaded paperwork but the highlight was riding behind my favourite loco which was a 31, my favourite train to work was the DMU although I must have been one of the few to actually enjoyed working it.

I loved that DMU, shame they went and sold it...

 

[Aictos]

I agree and seeing it start up from the cold on a cold winter's day was some sight with all the clag that came from the exhausts.

 

[Tom C]

60% off a season ticket (still capped at a certain level) is the best you will get at NR, but new applicants know that they dont get free travel so they are not really in any position to moan about it.

Again, this is looking at it for someone joining from outside the industry. I am talking as someone who is already employed within the rail industry.

As I said people may disagree on how much of an affect it may have from outside of the industry, but within the industry it would have a bearing.

Currently it costs me nothing to get to work but if that was taken away from me tomorrow it would cost me in excess of £400 a year to get to work. Whilst that may not seem like much it would add to an already growing expense list!. this is not taking into account how much further I may have to travel in a new post.

Id disagree with that too, you certainly dont need a degree to get in. Our office has somewhere in the region of 90 odd people, I could count on two hands those with a degree. I really hope you have not applied purely on that basis !! Unfortunately people with experience tend to have higher salary demands so wont get the jobs when they can get someone off the street for several thousand less.

For train planning posts and control posts within my TOC you have required degrees to apply over the past few years. Rarely do posts of this nature get advertised externally so its difficult to gauge what other TOC's require.

Not sure what you mean regarding experience = more money but salary does play a part when you have to pay bills. If I ever left my current post, any new post would have to at least pay the same as it does now otherwise I would simply not be able to survive.

NR will never be on the same playing field as a TOC, we will never get free travel, Coucher has already said that.

Thats a dreadful admission. I cannot see how one side gets it and one doesn't, especially as one side cannot operate without the other.

 

[ungreat]

It's by far the most oversubscribed railway post and very hard to get into. Your job is to obey speed restrictions, timetables and signals, rules and that's what you must do, there is little or no decision making, which might not suit some people.

Little or no decision making? How do you arrive at that conclusion? Seems to me you are trying to belittle the driver's job,why is that?

Most jobs outside of management involve all the above,ie following rules and procedures and not making your own mind up.

As it happens,we are in sole charge of a train,and if it goes tits up then we as drivers are left with many decisions to make.Sometimes a split second decision from the driver can save many lives.Plus we have to assess if the train is fit for service,test safety systems..all theses are decisions made every day,not by anyone else,by the driver!

I do not wish to argue with you,just pointing out that you seem a little bitter towards the driving grade,as are a lot of people.

 

[turbo mick]

hi there

when i was brought up in the north east i always wanted 2 get on the railways.

Left home at 18 joined Br at Reading in 1989 as a trainman Guard then Trainman Driver Got me Drivers job in 1993 passed out in 1995 been a instructor driver for 12yrs now and just did my 20yrs service 30th may.My only regret i couldnt get driving job back home

Br days were great i wish we were in the public sector still mixed traction route knowledge. free travel every where near enough good wages and pension 4 day week

i would always say the railways is a very safe job with the climate were are all in.The job has alot of responsibility safety is no1 everyone who is a driver are trained up to a high standed ive had about 6 trainees and they all qualified and stiil working well that gives me pride.

cheers

mick

 

[HSTfan!!!]

because I'd like to be the one making all the punters lives hell... oh wait I already do that haha, just kidding! Money is definitely up there on the list of reasons, and don't forget it doesn't all stop when you get to driver. I actually want to be a driver instructor at some point personally.

 

[Mojo]

Because it's better than working on the station which gets freezing cold in winter and boiling hot in the summer!

 

[Aictos]

Because it's better than working on the station which gets freezing cold in winter and boiling hot in the summer!

A bit like the driver's cab then!

 

[Mojo]

A bit like the driver's cab then!

Heh! I've been in a 170 which had a pretty good temperature gauge!

 

[Metroland]

Little or no decision making? How do you arrive at that conclusion? Seems to me you are trying to belittle the driver's job,why is that?

Most jobs outside of management involve all the above,ie following rules and procedures and not making your own mind up.

As it happens,we are in sole charge of a train,and if it goes tits up then we as drivers are left with many decisions to make.Sometimes a split second decision from the driver can save many lives.Plus we have to assess if the train is fit for service,test safety systems..all theses are decisions made every day,not by anyone else,by the driver!

I do not wish to argue with you,just pointing out that you seem a little bitter towards the driving grade,as are a lot of people.

I arrive at that conclusion from observing frustrated drivers. Sure, the driver is in charge of the safety of the train, but other than driving that train in a skilful and safe manner, he/she does not have much say over wider performance issues or day-to-day working of the railway, which annoys the hell of out them because they 'did their bit'. This is not meant to belittle the role, or sound disparaging, but the role, I'm sure you would agree is about strict observance of rules, instructions and concentration in the very controlled railway environment - few outside the railway actually really understand and the drivers are key to that. I am certainly not bitter about the driving grade, they deserve every penny they get because the role is highly responsible. But I think you would also agree it takes a special sort of person to be a good driver, because it is regimented. It's the mindset of forces personal, policing, pilots, and so on. This is why personality tests are carried out, rather than looking at straight academic grades.

As it happens, I actually think the role is rather 'underrated', it takes as much or more training as probably has more responsibility or as much compared many roles in other forms of transport. I laugh at people that think MSTS/RS makes them a driver, there is much, much more to it than that.

On the issue of pay, many other railway grades are paid similar amounts: Senior S&T, high grade signallers and controllers, station managers, engineers, planners. A mate of mine works for the Pway, and is paid £30k a year plus, but because its a 'get your hands mucky' role, many people would never consider it. This is the point am trying to make, people should keep their minds and options open. They should also find out as much as possible about different roles and maybe do 'experience days' at preserved railways to find out what suits them. Many people think the driver is the centre of the railway, he is just one part, albeit an important part - obviously preserved railways are different to the day-to-day working of the main line, but its a good taster. The railway is very much a team effort from a lot of grades.

 

[Mintona]

Because it's better than working on the station which gets freezing cold in winter and boiling hot in the summer!

That is partially the reason I want to get on trains, be that in a driver or conductor role. I hve wanted to drive since I was 2, and hopefully one day I will make it. I have my foot in the door now so to speak, so that may make it a bit easier, although not much!

 

[SouthEastern-465]

if you want to drive on a preservation you will,but if like me you want to drive on E.G the South-Central division,you will but people make there own choices on these things
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I arrive at that conclusion from observing frustrated drivers. Sure, the driver is in charge of the safety of the train, but other than driving that train in a skilful and safe manner, he/she does not have much say over wider performance issues or day-to-day working of the railway, which annoys the hell of out them because they 'did their bit'. This is not meant to belittle the role, or sound disparaging, but the role, I'm sure you would agree is about strict observance of rules, instructions and concentration in the very controlled railway environment - few outside the railway actually really understand and the drivers are key to that. I am certainly not bitter about the driving grade, they deserve every penny they get because the role is highly responsible. But I think you would also agree it takes a special sort of person to be a good driver, because it is regimented. It's the mindset of forces personal, policing, pilots, and so on. This is why personality tests are carried out, rather than looking at straight academic grades.

As it happens, I actually think the role is rather 'underrated', it takes as much or more training as probably has more responsibility or as much compared many roles in other forms of transport. I laugh at people that think MSTS/RS makes them a driver, there is much, much more to it than that.

On the issue of pay, many other railway grades are paid similar amounts: Senior S&T, high grade signallers and controllers, station managers, engineers, planners. A mate of mine works for the Pway, and is paid £30k a year plus, but because its a 'get your hands mucky' role, many people would never consider it. This is the point am trying to make, people should keep their minds and options open. They should also find out as much as possible about different roles and maybe do 'experience days' at preserved railways to find out what suits them. Many people think the driver is the centre of the railway, he is just one part, albeit an important part - obviously preserved railways are different to the day-to-day working of the main line, but its a good taster. The railway is very much a team effort from a lot of grades.

i agree with you 100%,the driver for one isnt the hero of the railway but just one of many who keep it going,so with just drivers the rail networks going,....no,we need the egineers,managers,etc...,but my choice is to be a driver and,and this is my opinion

 

[First class]

I'd rather be a shunter on £30,000 a year and not have to do much outside the peaks

 

[Flyboy]

Isn't being a train driver one of those things everyone wants to do as a kid? When I was younger it was a toss up between train driver and airline pilot...
The youngest age for a pilot's license was 12 (private airstrip or whatever) but due to non affordance of that, I got into railways...everyone has a goal though.. I've wanted a job on the railway since I was very young but only just got one now... some people manage to fall straight into driving I dunno, I just reckon its got something to do with that and the money too.

Spot on Stacey, I took the other route - Air experience flights with the CCF at 12, RAF at 19 and airline pilot at 30. I chose flying over train driving simply because I flew an aircraft before I drove a train. However, with the glamour all but gone out of airline flying and airline management doing their collective utmost to ruin the aviation industry I'd now like to take the other route.

In answer to the original question, one has to realise where one's talents lay, and for me that is controlling machinery - I drive cars, I ride motorbikes, I fly aeroplanes, I skipper boats, to name but a few, and I have a natural talent in that area. It would therefore be unwise for me personally to go for a railway signalling or airline cabin attendant job because it's not where my personal skills and qualities lay so I may not be very good.

I suspect the answer is the salary! £30k+ for a job with little or no decision making as you put it sounds rather good.

That's total and absolute tosh. Today's workforce is sensibly switching on to the fact that a good work/life balance is key, there's no point whatsoever working up to 60 hours a week (as I used to do) if you don't have a life outside of work. I'd quite happily earn one quarter of my aviation salary to get my foot in the door as a trainee train driver, but unfortunately at the moment there's a recession which is rather getting in the way, and coupled to that the railway is a frustratingly incestuous industry.

 

[Metroland]

coupled to that the railway is a frustratingly incestuous industry.

Yep, there's a shortage of ways in, with a lack of courses, and all the management know each other. Really needs to be opened out as it does not apply to any other form of transport.