Why don't Northern order Stadler FLIRTs??

[Philip]

Why don't Northern order the same bi-mode trains which now operate on Greater Anglia services?

These have been a great success and are generally considered better than the Civities.

They would be ideal for routes like Southport to Manchester via Bolton and Blackpool to York, taking advantage of the electric sections as this would lessen the need to electrify the diesel sections.

 

[JonathanH]

Why don't Northern order the same bi-mode trains which now operate on Greater Anglia services?

Equally you could ask why the other manufacturers haven't yet offered a similar product. Cost may be one key reason.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Why don't Northern order the same bi-mode trains which now operate on Greater Anglia services?

These have been a great success and are generally considered better than the Civities.

They would be ideal for routes like Southport to Manchester via Bolton and Blackpool to York, taking advantage of the electric sections as this would lessen the need to electrify the diesel sections.

They might, we just have to wait and found out
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-contract-and-business-commitments.252377/
And it is bi-modes they're looking for

 

[Snow1964]

They might, we just have to wait and found out
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-contract-and-business-commitments.252377/
And it is bi-modes they're looking for

The Northern tender is for upto 450 units,
unspecified number of vehicles or length
with delivery upto 14th August 2031 (estimated)
Framework agreement with call offs

Initially manufacturing requirements are for multi-mode multiple units, including options to order further units and/or additional centre-vehicles and/or a mix of multi-mode and electric multiple units.

So later could be EMUs, and also later sets could be lengthened under the contract.

 

[adamedwards]

Given Northern has a number of routes which will likely move from diesel to electric (e.g. Windermere branch) within the life span of the trains, the modular nature of Stadler's power pack would appear ideal. Start with a trimode electric-diesel-battery then as electric wires spread remove the diesel, with the battery as a get you home in emergency/yards without wires use longer term. Initially the battery would also be used to boost the diesel when departing stations so less engines are needed.

Does any other manufacturer have anything to compete with this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given Northern has a number of routes which will likely move from diesel to electric (e.g. Windermere branch) within the life span of the trains, the modular nature of Stadler's power pack would appear ideal. Start with a trimode electric-diesel-battery then as electric wires spread remove the diesel, with the battery as a get you home in emergency/yards without wires use longer term. Initially the battery would also be used to boost the diesel when departing stations so less engines are needed.

Does any other manufacturer have anything to compete with this?

It's probably easier to unbolt a power pack with forklift slots from underneath a train than shunt an articulated vehicle out, to be honest.

I do think all EMUs should be required to have a "get out of trouble" low speed shunt battery to allow units to be moved to a safe evacuation place promptly in the case of a dewiring or power failure, it would mean most evacuations can take place in stations (even if only through one door at a far-too-short platform), including retrofit to existing units.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It's probably easier to unbolt a power pack with forklift slots from underneath a train than shunt an articulated vehicle out, to be honest.

I thought the power pack was interchangeable by taking modules out of it and back in, which I thought would be doable in a maintenance depot without separating.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought the power pack was interchangeable by taking modules out of it and back in, which I thought would be doable in a maintenance depot without separating.

You'd not leave the power module in if converting to an EMU.

I don't think removing a power pack from under a conventional DMU would be any easier or harder than removing one from a Stadler power module.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

You'd not leave the power module in if converting to an EMU.

Don't you still need a bit of space for whatever mechanical stuff is needed like how there's the bit on a 745 with just a corridor? Surely it'd be better to just have the power module have all that stuff in?

 

[skyhigh]

Why don't Northern order the same bi-mode trains which now operate on Greater Anglia services?

Because it's a competitive tender. Manufacturers submit bids to match the tender requirements, the best bid is then chosen.

When you're looking for up to 450 units, you don't just ring up a single manufacturer and say "can I have some of those please?"

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't you still need a bit of space for whatever mechanical stuff is needed like how there's the bit on a 745 with just a corridor? Surely it'd be better to just have the power module have all that stuff in?

It's in the area behind the cab which is longer on a Stadler than other units. The 745 is basically two single-ended 6 car units so it also has two of these in the middle, because Stadler doesn't offer a 12-car unit.

 

[Energy]

For the original Civity order - it was fairly clear that 2016 Northern would need new stock but the government didn't want to pay too much for it. The 755s don't have the best fuel range but they stay fairly close to Norwich so can be refuelled during the day if needed and switch to electric when heading into Norwich station. Arriva Rail North had the 195s on Northern Connect services which would have been longer distance and wouldn't have stayed too close to their home depot so 755s wouldn't have been that well suited unless they had bigger tanks fitted.

For the current tender it has not been awarded yet.

Because it's a competitive tender. Manufacturers submit bids to match the tender requirements, the best bid is then chosen.

When you're looking for up to 450 units, you don't just ring up a single manufacturer and say "can I have some of those please?"

Generally whoever is running the tender will engage with manufacturers first before the tender is put out, Northern had a teams meeting with any interested manufacturers earlier this year.

 

[RailWonderer]

For the original Civity order - it was fairly clear that 2016 Northern would need new stock but the government didn't want to pay too much for it. The 755s don't have the best fuel range but they stay fairly close to Norwich so can be refuelled during the day if needed and switch to electric when heading into Norwich station. Arriva Rail North had the 195s on Northern Connect services which would have been longer distance and wouldn't have stayed too close to their home depot so 755s wouldn't have been that well suited unless they had bigger tanks fitted.

For the current tender it has not been awarded yet.

Generally whoever is running the tender will engage with manufacturers first before the tender is put out, Northern had a teams meeting with any interested manufacturers earlier this year.

The 755s have small fuel tanks because they can be swapped midday at Norwich (or Colchester for the Sudbury services) and never spend too long off the wires besides 90 mins Ipswich - Lowestoft and 95 mins Stowmarket - P'boro.
195s were intended to be used accross the network around Longsight, Neville Hill and eventially around Newcastle and Carlisle for the CC line and Whitby. They are likely intended to be a go anywhere DMU when the Sprinters have all gone and new bi modes and/or battery trains replace 195s on the main Northern routes around Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield and Nottingham.

 

[ac6000cw]

The 755s have smaller (than desirable) fuel tanks to keep the weight low enough to qualify for SP (Sprinter) differential higher line speeds. This was essential to maintain the existing timings when they were introduced as replacements for the 170s, 156s and 153s.

As I would hope that any future multi-mode Flirt orders would be for either OHLE+battery or OHLE+battery+diesel versions, this might be less of a problem going forward, as they'll have fewer or no diesel engines per unit and can use regenerative braking to recharge the batteries.

One issue is that as they are largely articulated, they need maintenance facilities equipped to deal with that - quite a lot of money was spent on Crown Point depot to update it for 745 & 755 maintenance.

 

[dosxuk]

The 755s have small fuel tanks because they can be swapped midday at Norwich (or Colchester for the Sudbury services)

I'm sure I remember that when they were first being tested they were found to not have large enough fuel tanks to reliably cover the existing sprinter diagrams - resulting in having to recast how the services were operated to ensure they had enough trips to the fuelling point - not something that was in the original plan or design.

If so, it's more the case that they have to be swapped midday at Norwich because of the small fuel tanks than they have small fuels tanks because they can be swapped.

 

[dk1]

I'm sure I remember that when they were first being tested they were found to not have large enough fuel tanks to reliably cover the existing sprinter diagrams - resulting in having to recast how the services were operated to ensure they had enough trips to the fuelling point - not something that was in the original plan or design.

If so, it's more the case that they have to be swapped midday at Norwich because of the small fuel tanks than they have small fuels tanks because they can be swapped.

The normal sized fuel tanks in the power pack made this vehicle too heavy as mounted on the jacobs bogies of adjacent coaches so could not run at SP speeds. To overcome this they have less capacity needing a daily trip to the pumps.