Why is 'First Class' and equivalents so much more expensive on trains?

[Bayum]

I get the idea of being seated in a separate area, and only 2x2 or 2x1, but even with the extras, do you think the price is justified , unless got at a discount? I'm not sure I've been on many journies where I've had an extra £100 worth of extras to take with me, let alone buy on the train!

 

[Starmill]

What price are we talking?

Let's say you're travelling one way from Stalybridge to Manchester Piccadilly.

Standard Class is £3.70 and First Class is £4.60. That's only £0.90 extra to travel in First Class - and you might even get a cup of tea and a biscuit, in addition to the nicer area.

 

[Bayum]

What price are we talking?

Let's say you're travelling one way from Stalybridge to Manchester Piccadilly.

Standard Class is £3.70 and First Class is £4.60. That's only £0.90 extra to travel in First Class - and you might even get a cup of tea and a biscuit, in addition to the nicer area.

I dunno if I'm honest.

I'm looking at £86 for my journey to London tomorrow... It was actually the same price as you've said, give or take £10. BUT. On other trains there was a clear difference of £60, £70 and I'd hate to think what walk up fare would be!

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Have you ever looked at plane tickets? First class can easily be four or more times the cost of an economy fare.

On trains, advance tickets can be very similar. I was just looking at Steeton to Manchester Airport advances - £14 std, £24 first, seems pretty reasonable for a quieter seat and complimentary drink and snack.

 

[yorkie]

I get the idea of being seated in a separate area, and only 2x2 or 2x1, but even with the extras, do you think the price is justified , unless got at a discount? I'm not sure I've been on many journies where I've had an extra £100 worth of extras to take with me, let alone buy on the train!

I'm going first class both ways this weekend. The undiscounted rate is less than £40 for each of York-London (VTEC) and London-Leeds (EMT) and I do think that's worth it, although I'm only actually paying half that for York-London (if I was paying undiscounted rates, I may have gone Standard, depending on what the undiscounted Standard price was at the time of booking).

I would never consider paying anything like £100 extra.

 

[Bayum]

Have you ever looked at plane tickets? First class can easily be four or more times the cost of an economy fare.

On trains, advance tickets can be very similar. I was just looking at Steeton to Manchester Airport advances - £14 std, £24 first, seems pretty reasonable for a quieter seat and complimentary drink and snack.

But, do you think you've used an extra £10 of service and goods on top of what you've already paid? At that cost, is justify it too, however my question was about tickets where you're looking at £50+. I don't know if it's because I'm a teacher, but I have to really itemise and justify exactly how I can spend £x on something!

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Yes, I do normally cost out the price of first class, based on the included extras and how busy a train is likely to be, so I do quite rarely use it.

Last time was a cheap advance up to Newcastle, when I knew we would be able to get some food on the VTEC leg and the ex-Leeds TPE was a busy service, so the first class cabin was nice and quiet.

 

[mpthomson]

I get the idea of being seated in a separate area, and only 2x2 or 2x1, but even with the extras, do you think the price is justified , unless got at a discount? I'm not sure I've been on many journies where I've had an extra £100 worth of extras to take with me, let alone buy on the train!

It depends for what purpose you're using First class. I used to use it extensively for business travel as it meant I could work on the train. The food/drink bit was less important, though nice. If you took my hourly salary rate (close to £40ph at that point) then it makes sense over a longer journey as I could be productive, especially if travelling in work time, whereas I couldn't in standard (space and particularly confidentiality reasons, though you still need to be careful re that in First).

From a corporate point of view, yes it was worth it. As a private traveller I'd never buy a full price First ticket, advance only!

 

[a_c_skinner]

First class at the standard walk up fare is absurdly profitable. So it makes sense to sell as many seats as you can at those prices, mainly to people whose employers/businesses pay, either so they can do work or as a perk.

Sell the balance of the premium seats however you can - airlines do it by upgrades and selling on economy seats vacated.

 

[3141]

It depends for what purpose you're using First class.....From a corporate point of view, yes it was worth it. As a private traveller I'd never buy a full price First ticket, advance only!

Exactly. Like with many things, you buy first class if you think it's worth it. "Worth it" means not just saving the cost of the food, but comfort, less likely that you'll have to stand, more space, a degree of exclusivity (you hope!), a table, or even (as with Virgin West Coast earlier this year) an advance Manchester to London fare of £34.50 compared with £35 in standard class. Different answers for different people, or even different answers for the same person, depending on the circumstances.

 

[AlterEgo]

The economics of fares and the worth to the individual will vary depending on a number of circumstances.

As far as I am concerned, as a person who travels intercity for leisure 95% of the time, I will deliberately pick dates and times which I know are cheap, and book well in advance. The premium in this case is not the issue - it's a predetermination that I want to travel in First Class and will seek out the most affordable fare to do so. I don't look at the Standard fares. I would not normally pay more than, say, £60 one way for London to Scotland, unless it's a sleeper fare in which case the saving on a hotel night might make me double that figure. My next First Class trip is VTWC to Liverpool, from Euston. £36.95 all in, with a railcard discount. That ticket includes lounge access and a cooked breakfast, as well as free wifi. I think that's a good deal and it is of no consequence that Standard fares might have been £7 or £10 on the same train.

However, I don't usually choose First Class on routes which don't offer freebies like food. A notable exception is SWT's 159 route to Exeter, which is long enough to justify me paying a small premium to guarantee a single comfortable seat and probably a nap.

On airlines, the First Class fare is usually absolutely extortionate - though I know a few ways to travel in First Class quite affordably, which involve looking at Business Class fare loopholes and using upgrade vouchers and miles. The product is not usually worth the premium in and of itself, though I am usually rewarded with bumper airline miles (think, "ah, now I don't have to pay money for those six short haul flights I was going to take later this year, I can just redeem those 40,000 miles"...). I also film the experience and stick the videos on YouTube and typically recoup the fare outlay with advertising revenue within 12 months.

 

[Bantamzen]

The economics of fares and the worth to the individual will vary depending on a number of circumstances.

As far as I am concerned, as a person who travels intercity for leisure 95% of the time, I will deliberately pick dates and times which I know are cheap, and book well in advance. The premium in this case is not the issue - it's a predetermination that I want to travel in First Class and will seek out the most affordable fare to do so. I don't look at the Standard fares. I would not normally pay more than, say, £60 one way for London to Scotland, unless it's a sleeper fare in which case the saving on a hotel night might make me double that figure. My next First Class trip is VTWC to Liverpool, from Euston. £36.95 all in, with a railcard discount. That ticket includes lounge access and a cooked breakfast, as well as free wifi. I think that's a good deal and it is of no consequence that Standard fares might have been £7 or £10 on the same train.

However, I don't usually choose First Class on routes which don't offer freebies like food. A notable exception is SWT's 159 route to Exeter, which is long enough to justify me paying a small premium to guarantee a single comfortable seat and probably a nap.

On airlines, the First Class fare is usually absolutely extortionate - though I know a few ways to travel in First Class quite affordably, which involve looking at Business Class fare loopholes and using upgrade vouchers and miles. The product is not usually worth the premium in and of itself, though I am usually rewarded with bumper airline miles (think, "ah, now I don't have to pay money for those six short haul flights I was going to take later this year, I can just redeem those 40,000 miles"...). I also film the experience and stick the videos on YouTube and typically recoup the fare outlay with advertising revenue within 12 months.

As a causal observation on my daily commute (Baildon to Leeds, via Guiseley in the morning peak), it is surprising just how many business people buy their 1st Class London bound tickets either at Guiseley or even on the train. Its not uncommon to hear the guard asking for at least a couple of hundred pounds or more for a walk-on ticket and a business credit card be presented for payment. It amazes me that they don't simply book online the previous day and collect the tickets from the TVM (my Leeds bound service leaves Guiseley at 06:47), & I can't help wondering just why so companies just overlook such unnecessary expenses. And whilst this kind of buying continues, TOCs will have little incentive to reduce prices.

Personally I use 1st Class a lot on TPE, particularly between Leeds & Warrington but primarily because my wife and I are travelling to see family and we have luggage. As anyone knows trying to shoehorn onto a TPE is a challenge at best for most of the day, so booking 1st gives us a chance of getting out luggage stowed and getting to our seat without climbing over people! Otherwise I would normally book 1st well in advance, although having a Two Together card does make the choice a lot easier!!

 

[Clip]

As a causal observation on my daily commute (Baildon to Leeds, via Guiseley in the morning peak), it is surprising just how many business people buy their 1st Class London bound tickets either at Guiseley or even on the train. Its not uncommon to hear the guard asking for at least a couple of hundred pounds or more for a walk-on ticket and a business credit card be presented for payment. It amazes me that they don't simply book online the previous day and collect the tickets from the TVM (my Leeds bound service leaves Guiseley at 06:47), & I can't help wondering just why so companies just overlook such unnecessary expenses. And whilst this kind of buying continues, TOCs will have little incentive to reduce prices.

They may have a monthly allowance like I do where its mine to spend as I see fit on stuff like travel and hotels and such like. If I go over then I have to pay the excess.

I had to do a walk up the other week up to Newcastle and because I wanted the peace and quiet to do some work on a presentation I chose to sit in 1st simply because that's what it gave me.

theres an obsession about 1st class on here and I'm not sure why.....3 new threads about it in as many days

However on the flip side to that I'm off to Manchester and back via Preston in a few weeks and got 1st there and back for around 50 each way - always advances with leisure travel.

 

[absolutelymilk]

But, do you think you've used an extra £10 of service and goods on top of what you've already paid?

The value of the service and goods is completely subjective - someone who is travelling from their house at a reasonable time and can make sandwiches will be prepared to pay much less for lunch on the train than someone who would have to buy lunch anyway. Plus if you have a huge appetite like me, then getting a full at the Virgin shop can easily add up very quickly.

There's also the fact that some people find it easy to work in a cramped environment, but others can only properly concentrate when they can spread out a bit. Not to mention that businesspeople paid £100/hour will be prepared to pay more for an hour of relaxed travel than people paid £10/hour.

 

[richieb1971]

I would only buy a 1st class ticket for 20% over the standard class rate.

Although I was surprised on EMT that they give you a paper to read, endless cups of coffee and tea and a biscuit.

 

[Essan]

As an extreme example, a standard single from Evesham to Lochailort tomorrow is £98.80 - or £241.50 for 1st class. Only around 4 hours of the 11+ hour journey (ie between Brum and Glasgow) would be spent in a 1st class coach .....!

 

[yorksrob]

I'll upgrade for a reasonable premium. Ten or twenty pounds.

Time of day/week has an effect. On an evening trip when I want to relax with a bit of space, first class is more important than a morning. Also weekends when I know standard will be busy, it's sometimes worth upgrading.

 

[6Gman]

I would only buy a 1st class ticket for 20% over the standard class rate.

Although I was surprised on EMT that they give you a paper to read, endless cups of coffee and tea and a biscuit.

Since - by a very loose rule of thumb - you can only fit in 3 First Class seats where you could fit in 4 Standards there needs to be a 33% premium just to cover that, before we consider seat pitch and any freebies!

 

[richieb1971]

Since - by a very loose rule of thumb - you can only fit in 3 First Class seats where you could fit in 4 Standards there needs to be a 33% premium just to cover that, before we consider seat pitch and any freebies!

I see the point your making. But in my experience hardly any of the 1st class seats have people in them. Your basically hauling an extra carriage with 5 or 6 people on it. So I don't see that an extra 33% is warranted unless every seat is filled.

To get a good measure of extra custom in 1st class, I think half of 33% is more appropriate.

Unless of course people paying for 1st class are paying for the privilege of knowing filled seats will be scarce. In that situation then the 33% is value for money for those paying customers.

 

[6Gman]

I see the point your making. But in my experience hardly any of the 1st class seats have people in them. Your basically hauling an extra carriage with 5 or 6 people on it. So I don't see that an extra 33% is warranted unless every seat is filled.

To get a good measure of extra custom in 1st class, I think half of 33% is more appropriate.

Unless of course people paying for 1st class are paying for the privilege of knowing filled seats will be scarce. In that situation then the 33% is value for money for those paying customers.

And in my experience plenty of the 1st Class seats have people in them!



But the point I'm making is that the limiting factors on train capacity are length and weight. Since First Class uses more of both (by a factor of around 33%) any premium below that level would effectively mean that Standard Class would be subsidising First Class. A sort of Reverse Robin Hood!