Why is the Circle line so slow in the evenings?

[trebor79]

I had a cross-London transfer last Monday, Paddington to Liverpool Street. I decided to use the Circle Line because I had over an hour to make my connection and it's easier and less stuffy than the Bakerloo/Central.
Arrived at the platform to find the next train is 15 minutes away. OK, waited. 2 minutes before it arrived the destination changed to Moorgate, and I have to wait another 15 minutes.
Eventually it arrives, I get on and it sits for a couple of minutes before departing. At barely more than walking pace. Waited for several minutes at Edgeware Road before departing, again travelling very slowly. We sat for a full 5 minutes at Baker Street. By this time I was getting anxious I'd miss my connection and there were some annoying 20 somethings behaving like 12 years old throwing plastic bottles around, so I bailed out. Southbound Bakerloo not even showing any trains due on the platform just "Trains to Elephant & Castle", so went for the Jubilee and changed to the Central.
I got to Liverpool Street with 15 minutes to spare.

But I can't understand why the dwell times were so long on the Circle, and the trains driven so slowly when there can't have been any congestion due to the very long gaps between trains. I'm convinced I'd have missed my Liv St connection if I had stuck with the Circle (and it was an AP, so I didn't want the hassle of being on the wrong train, as well as it being late enough anyway).
It wasn't slow in the morning going the other way (and the frequency was much higher too). Why so slow in the evenings?

 

[Jim Jehosofat]

From memory the junction for the Hammersmith & City line is just after Paddington Circle line station and the junction with the Metropolitan line in just after Edgware Road. I also think that Edware Road is a crew changeover point. Did you let the Moorgate train go and wait for the next circle line?

 

[Dstock7080]

This ongoing thread give the problems with the Circle / H&C in the evenings: https://www.railforums.co.uk/posts/5208435/
Trains are held to time by the CBTC system and can lead to perceived 'slow' runs between stations.

 

[Hadders]

I'd have got that first train to Moorgate, as it's only a short walk from Moorgate to Liverpool Street and it's likely you's have been able to do a same platform change at any of the stations after Baker Street for a Metropolitan Line train.

 

[trebor79]

From memory the junction for the Hammersmith & City line is just after Paddington Circle line station and the junction with the Metropolitan line in just after Edgware Road. I also think that Edware Road is a crew changeover point. Did you let the Moorgate train go and wait for the next circle line?

I let the Moorgate go.

I'd have got that first train to Moorgate, as it's only a short walk from Moorgate to Liverpool Street and it's likely you's have been able to do a same platform change at any of the stations after Baker Street for a Metropolitan Line train.

In retrospect I should have done that, and only remembered that Moorgate is only a few minutes walk from Liv Street when I was halfway to Diss. It was late and I was tired after a very long day.

I wonder who would have been at fault if I had missed my connection? Would I have been entitled to delay repay or would I have been made to buy a new ticket?

 

[30907]

I wonder who would have been at fault if I had missed my connection? Would I have been entitled to delay repay or would I have been made to buy a new ticket?

Assuming you had a through ticket or split combination, and you had allowed the appropriate connecting time, then you should have been allowed to take the next train. Not sure LUL do delay repay and you couldn't claim it from GA . SItuation is less clear if you use Oyster.

 

[Mawkie]

I had a cross-London transfer last Monday, Paddington to Liverpool Street. I decided to use the Circle Line because I had over an hour to make my connection and it's easier and less stuffy than the Bakerloo/Central.
Arrived at the platform to find the next train is 15 minutes away. OK, waited. 2 minutes before it arrived the destination changed to Moorgate, and I have to wait another 15 minutes.
Eventually it arrives, I get on and it sits for a couple of minutes before departing. At barely more than walking pace. Waited for several minutes at Edgeware Road before departing, again travelling very slowly. We sat for a full 5 minutes at Baker Street. By this time I was getting anxious I'd miss my connection and there were some annoying 20 somethings behaving like 12 years old throwing plastic bottles around, so I bailed out. Southbound Bakerloo not even showing any trains due on the platform just "Trains to Elephant & Castle", so went for the Jubilee and changed to the Central.
I got to Liverpool Street with 15 minutes to spare.

But I can't understand why the dwell times were so long on the Circle, and the trains driven so slowly when there can't have been any congestion due to the very long gaps between trains. I'm convinced I'd have missed my Liv St connection if I had stuck with the Circle (and it was an AP, so I didn't want the hassle of being on the wrong train, as well as it being late enough anyway).
It wasn't slow in the morning going the other way (and the frequency was much higher too). Why so slow in the evenings?

There was a significant signal track failure in Barking around 1650hrs last Monday - the H&C was suspended between Liv St and Barking, and by 1725hrs the inner rail Circle was also suspended.

Shortly after, the Circle, and Hammersmith & City lines commenced ramping down of service due to non-availability of Service Control room staff.

 

[rebmcr]

I wonder who would have been at fault if I had missed my connection? Would I have been entitled to delay repay or would I have been made to buy a new ticket?

In my experience, although there is no obligation for them to do so, asking nicely at a London terminal's ticket office and explaining the tube delay results in an endorsement on the back of your ticket, or a reissue free of charge — either of which allow travel on a later service.

 

[Falcon1200]

I too have experienced delays on the Circle Line when travelling between Paddington and Liverpool St, so much so that I sometimes resorted to the Central Line between Lancaster Gate and Liverpool St. Note; This was in the period 1978-80 ! Clearly nothing has improved since, in fact with the ending of the circular Circle things are actually worse. I have long thought that Paddington is extremely poorly served by the Underground, Crossrail cannot come soon enough.

 

[Hadders]

I wonder who would have been at fault if I had missed my connection? Would I have been entitled to delay repay or would I have been made to buy a new ticket?

In the event of a delay you would be allowed to travel on the next train from Liverpool Street. If using a combination of tickets they must 'join up' across London and minimum interchange times be observed. Oyster can be used although it is more straightforward if a paper ticket is used.

London Underground don't offer a delay repay scheme so as far as I'm aware you would only be entitled to a refund of a single Underground fare for the underground delay.

 

[trebor79]

I too have experienced delays on the Circle Line when travelling between Paddington and Liverpool St, so much so that I sometimes resorted to the Central Line between Lancaster Gate and Liverpool St. Note; This was in the period 1978-80 ! Clearly nothing has improved since, in fact with the ending of the circular Circle things are actually worse. I have long thought that Paddington is extremely poorly served by the Underground, Crossrail cannot come soon enough.

Yes Crossrail is going to make a huge difference to this particular cross-London transfer.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

From memory the junction for the Hammersmith & City line is just after Paddington Circle line station and the junction with the Metropolitan line in just after Edgware Road. I also think that Edware Road is a crew changeover point. Did you let the Moorgate train go and wait for the next circle line?

Not any more , and not for a good few years - now crews are Hammersmith based , but disruption might have caused some of them to have changes there.

In the recent past , there have been odd terminal changes on the run - a train I had boarded at East Ham for Blackfriars was "reformed" and became a Hammersmith enroute , no big deal for me as I just stayed on it to Farringdon for TLK. Ditto a Hammersmith became a Wimbledon en-route.! Controllers , being controllers !

 

[Dstock7080]

Not any more , and not for a good few years - now crews are Hammersmith based , but disruption might have caused some of them to have changes there.

Edgware Road currently has 98 drivers rostered there.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Edgware Road currently has 98 drivers rostered there.

Well you learn something every day , thank you.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Don't forget Lancaster Gate station is probably no further from Paddington than Moorgate is to Liverpool Street. Would save having to change at Oxford Circus

 

[LU_timetabler]

I had a cross-London transfer last Monday, Paddington to Liverpool Street. I decided to use the Circle Line because I had over an hour to make my connection and it's easier and less stuffy than the Bakerloo/Central.
Arrived at the platform to find the next train is 15 minutes away. OK, waited. 2 minutes before it arrived the destination changed to Moorgate, and I have to wait another 15 minutes.
Eventually it arrives, I get on and it sits for a couple of minutes before departing. At barely more than walking pace. Waited for several minutes at Edgeware Road before departing, again travelling very slowly. We sat for a full 5 minutes at Baker Street. By this time I was getting anxious I'd miss my connection and there were some annoying 20 somethings behaving like 12 years old throwing plastic bottles around, so I bailed out. Southbound Bakerloo not even showing any trains due on the platform just "Trains to Elephant & Castle", so went for the Jubilee and changed to the Central.
I got to Liverpool Street with 15 minutes to spare.

But I can't understand why the dwell times were so long on the Circle, and the trains driven so slowly when there can't have been any congestion due to the very long gaps between trains. I'm convinced I'd have missed my Liv St connection if I had stuck with the Circle (and it was an AP, so I didn't want the hassle of being on the wrong train, as well as it being late enough anyway).
It wasn't slow in the morning going the other way (and the frequency was much higher too). Why so slow in the evenings?

This does not seem to make much sense. Presumably you were at Paddington Suburban platform, rather than the Circle/District platform. Then why did you have to wait for a Circle, what's wrong with a H&C train. And yes you could also have taken the Moorgate train and changed anywhere after Baker Street for a Met to take you through to Liverpool Street.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I feel in a bit of disgrace after getting it wrong with Edgware Road train crew depot , - however - in my long experience of this journey , of late the enhanced H&C service has been fine , (but a bit busy) , a good option has always been Bakerloo to Baker St (nice and warm in the winter) , decent interchange - with good options forward on the H&C or the Met main.

Walking to Lancaster Gate is easy (just one awkward road to cross) - and never been let down on that.

Crossrail will be a game changer when it comes ......

(the old nightmare of getting an Edgware Road terminator from Paddington (main) , freezing there , and often missing a forward connection due to the stampede over the bridge , is one long ago discounted. And I mean 25 years ago ! (once - having done that - the "Circle" was out of service at Farringdon , so we all sighed - but the controllers , reversed an inner Circle over the then extant crossover there and we got to Liverpool St for the 1900 Norwich on a cold winter evening. Apart from lauding the clever move - the reassurance over the PA was great - "we haven't forgotten you - this train is coming for you" - excellent.

 

[trebor79]

This does not seem to make much sense. Presumably you were at Paddington Suburban platform, rather than the Circle/District platform. Then why did you have to wait for a Circle, what's wrong with a H&C train. And yes you could also have taken the Moorgate train and changed anywhere after Baker Street for a Met to take you through to Liverpool Street.

The first train (that got changed to terminating at Moorgate) was originally advertised as going to Barking. There were no other trains between it and the one I eventually got on. It was a very sparse "service" indeed.
Didn't think about changing to the met, but presumably I'd have just got stuck behind the very pedestrian circle train anyway. I think bailing for the deep tube was the right decision.

the reassurance over the PA was great - "we haven't forgotten you - this train is coming for you" - excellent.

I do enjoy the off the cuff announcements on the underground. Seems to happen less often these days though.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The first train (that got changed to terminating at Moorgate) was originally advertised as going to Barking. There were no other trains between it and the one I eventually got on. It was a very sparse "service" indeed.
Didn't think about changing to the met, but presumably I'd have just got stuck behind the very pedestrian circle train anyway. I think bailing for the deep tube was the right decision.



I do enjoy the off the cuff announcements on the underground. Seems to happen less often these days though.

There was a magnificent Scottish guy at Kings Cross , who really livened up the commuter drudge on the am peak (Circle and Met sections) .who excelled himself one day by announcing one of the first refurbished , painted "C" stock by saying - "Ladies and Gentlemen - here is one of our updated and smart trains , hope you enjoy it - the paint , is , I assure you dry" - pretty good for a miserable , wet , December morning.

 

[stuu]

I too have experienced delays on the Circle Line when travelling between Paddington and Liverpool St, so much so that I sometimes resorted to the Central Line between Lancaster Gate and Liverpool St. Note; This was in the period 1978-80 ! Clearly nothing has improved since, in fact with the ending of the circular Circle things are actually worse. I have long thought that Paddington is extremely poorly served by the Underground, Crossrail cannot come soon enough.

When I used to regularly do city-Paddington I came to the conclusion that going via Lancaster Gate is the only choice, and was far more reliable and less stressful. Obviously Crossrail solves that issue... one day

 

[bluegoblin7]

Didn't think about changing to the met, but presumably I'd have just got stuck behind the very pedestrian circle train anyway. I think bailing for the deep tube was the right decision.

"First train and change" is always advised for a reason. If you waited 15 minutes for a second C&H service then 'getting stuck' behind the first one on the Met would have still been quicker.

Additional C&H trains may also start (reversing west to east) at Edgware Road, or come off the Outer Rail. This is particularly true during times of perturbation (as appears to be the case here).

LUL is no different from most other TOCs in having chronic staff shortages at the moment.

 

[Busaholic]

Obviously Crossrail solves that issue... one day

Don't know about you, but my attitude is 'I should live so long!'

 

[adrock1976]

A quick side question: do the stations between Hammersmith and Paddington (Bishops Bridge Road) still have signs stating "If destination is not shown take first train and change at Whitechapel" (before the Circle Line was revised to run to Hammersmith in 2009)?

 

[rebmcr]

A quick side question: do the stations between Hammersmith and Paddington (Bishops Bridge Road) still have signs stating "If destination is not shown take first train and change at Whitechapel" (before the Circle Line was revised to run to Hammersmith in 2009)?

West Ham does still have the inverse advice from before the H&C's full time extension past Whitechapel. I can't imagine it will remain past 4LM, so perhaps the western version is already gone.

 

[Snow1964]

There will be a new timetable in September

(Page 7). The next area of focus would be SMA5, which would complete works on the Circle line. In September 2021 a new timetable would be introduced for the north section of the Circle line, which would provide run time improvements and additional trains per hour

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/pic-20210721-agenda-papers-public.pdf

 

[ValleyLines142]

Interesting reading this, I travelled from Norwich to Gloucester a few weeks back and managed to get off at the very first carriage nearest to the buffers at Liverpool Street, straight onto a westbound Hammersmith & City Line train and on the train at Paddington all within 20 minutes! Appreciate that this was sheer luck, however.

 

[jfisher21]

To get from Paddington to Liverpool Street I normally take the Bakerloo to Baker Street and change there. From there if a Metropolitan Line train is due from platform 3 then that is my preferred option as they are often nearly empty!