Why isn't there another tube station between Canada Water and Canary Wharf?

[Cloud Strife]

Vistiting London recently, I found myself exploring Rotherhithe. It's interesting to see how this part of London is still relatively undeveloped/uncrowded compared to other areas. Wandering around, I came across the Surrey Docks Farm, and then I wanted to head back into Central London. And here is the issue: I don't know London well, but I knew that the Jubilee Line runs between Canada Water towards Canary Wharf. So, I asked someone, and they told me to jump on a bus back to Canada Water in order to get the Jubilee Line across the water, as the river service would be very uncomfortable due to the river being quite wild that day.

So, I wanted to ask here: why isn't there another tube station between Canada Water and Canary Wharf?

 

[Gloster]

You have probably answered the question in your second sentence. Tube stations are fairly expensive to build, particularly near the river, and if there aren‘t many potential passengers… (Not that I am familiar with the area. “Wot, me, guv! Nah, you won’t get me sarf of the river.”)

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I'm not sure where they could even put one between those two?

Image is a surface map of the two stations with a line drawn between them.

 

[bramling]

Vistiting London recently, I found myself exploring Rotherhithe. It's interesting to see how this part of London is still relatively undeveloped/uncrowded compared to other areas. Wandering around, I came across the Surrey Docks Farm, and then I wanted to head back into Central London. And here is the issue: I don't know London well, but I knew that the Jubilee Line runs between Canada Water towards Canary Wharf. So, I asked someone, and they told me to jump on a bus back to Canada Water in order to get the Jubilee Line across the water, as the river service would be very uncomfortable due to the river being quite wild that day.

So, I wanted to ask here: why isn't there another tube station between Canada Water and Canary Wharf?

Very interesting question. Indeed it may well not have been that difficult, as that section of the Jubilee was constructed from a working site at Durands Wharf - on Rotherhithe Street roughly at the midway point between the two adjacent stations. The finished railway incorporated this shaft as a permanent vent shaft.

The ground conditions in the area are problematic though, so it may well have increased the cost of such a station, and it also has to be considered against the time penalty - especially as the immediate area was rather less developed in the early 90s when the JLE was authorised compared to how things have turned out.

I guess it’s really a case of simply cost versus benefits not stacking up, though I’m not sure I can recall the possibility of a station in this section ever being the subject of much discussion.

I'm not sure where they could even put one between those two?

Image is a surface map of the two stations with a line drawn between them.

View attachment 132184

You’re not far off with the above, the JLE’s Durands Wharf shaft can be seen on the east side of Rotherhithe Street just north of the line you’ve drawn. As a matter of interest, the section has two other shafts - at Downtown Road and Pioneer Wharf, making three intermediate shafts in total.

 

[hkstudent]

You have probably answered the question in your second sentence. Tube stations are fairly expensive to build, particularly near the river, and if there aren‘t many potential passengers… (Not that I am familiar with the area. “Wot, me, guv! Nah, you won’t get me sarf of the river.”)

Indeed, the population density is not high enough to support that.
It’s pretty much the same case for the periphery of Isle of Dogs

 

[Cloud Strife]

I guess it’s really a case of simply cost versus benefits not stacking up, though I’m not sure I can recall the possibility of a station in this section ever being the subject of much discussion.

Thank you for your post and details about the area! Yes, I was wondering about the cost/benefit ratio, although it does seem like a large gap when you consider the amount of time needed to cross the river from that part as opposed to simply having a tube station there.

I'm not sure where they could even put one between those two?

Wouldn't Durand's Wharf be a logical site? I have no idea about the practicalities of building a station there, though.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What's the "as the crow flies" distance between Canada Water and Canary Wharf? Over 3 km / 2 miles? Is that the longest distance between two stations on the Jubilee Line?

 

[W-on-Sea]

Inadequate demand is the short answer: the eastern end of that peninsula could, like the southern part of the Isle of Dogs, doubtlessly support numerous light railway stations (above ground), but the cost/benefit analysis for what would have to be a fairly deep tube station couldn't be expected to stack up, not least as there is barely any kind of commercial or neighbourhood centre there, nor realistically is one likely to be developed, despite all the housing (and indeed the more direct route around the peninsula, Salter Road) that has been constructed nearby since the docks closed

 

[Mikey C]

What's proposed for that area is a foot/cycle crossing across the Thames to Canary Wharf. A bridge was investigated, but this never progressed due to the costs. There's talk about a ferry instead.

Rotherhithe crossing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Cloud Strife]

What's proposed for that area is a foot/cycle crossing across the Thames to Canary Wharf. A bridge was investigated, but this never progressed due to the costs. There's talk about a ferry instead.

Thanks! This idea for ferries that automatically dock is interesting, as it would reduce the time needed to load and unload passengers.

But the cost of it all makes me wonder: is it really cheaper than a new tube station?

 

[bramling]

Thanks! This idea for ferries that automatically dock is interesting, as it would reduce the time needed to load and unload passengers.

But the cost of it all makes me wonder: is it really cheaper than a new tube station?

Almost certainly. The cost of a new intermediate station on the Jubilee Line would be massive. On top of that one also has to consider the cost of slowing down existing Jubilee Line journeys, though now Canary Wharf has Crossrail this might adjust the balance slightly as the Jubilee Line isn’t quite so important for Canary Wharf journeys (though the link from Waterloo, London Bridge and Canada Water is still very important).

 

[endicomark69@g]

As someone that spent 1997-1999 seconded to the Jubilee Line Extension project I can confirm all the above answers as correct - it was cost against potential benefits plus fairly huge penalties to Jube run-times in that area. There simply wasn't enough "benefit" in the 90s when the original scope was generated.

Even today it's likely you'd be pushing it to generate enough to justify the construction - you likely have to use nitrogen stabilisation for the expanded envelope of the platforms even if you could convert around a shaft base. Very expensive indeed.

 

[Joe Paxton]

As someone that spent 1997-1999 seconded to the Jubilee Line Extension project I can confirm all the above answers as correct - it was cost against potential benefits plus fairly huge penalties to Jube run-times in that area. There simply wasn't enough "benefit" in the 90s when the original scope was generated.
[...]

On a related topic, I recall reading something about how - in earlier planning stages at least - there was no guarantee that a JLE station on the Rotherhithe peninsula (i.e. what would become Canada Water) would offer a direct interchange with the East London Line, which was at the time a rather sleepy backwater of the Underground network.

This would (thankfully) have been resolved by the time you were working on the project, but I wonder if it's something you can comment on?

 

[James H]

It's worth considering that both Southwark and Bermondsey stations were relatively late additions to the project as a result of local political pressure

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It's worth considering that both Southwark and Bermondsey stations were relatively late additions to the project as a result of local political pressure

Interesting! Are you suggesting that the only Jubilee Line station stop between Waterloo and Canada Water might just have been London Bridge?!

 

[James H]

Here's a 1990 local newspaper cutting:

 

[bramling]

As someone that spent 1997-1999 seconded to the Jubilee Line Extension project I can confirm all the above answers as correct - it was cost against potential benefits plus fairly huge penalties to Jube run-times in that area. There simply wasn't enough "benefit" in the 90s when the original scope was generated.

Even today it's likely you'd be pushing it to generate enough to justify the construction - you likely have to use nitrogen stabilisation for the expanded envelope of the platforms even if you could convert around a shaft base. Very expensive indeed.

I'm guessing that a 'box' type station might have been possible utilising the open space immediately to the west of the Downtown Road shaft. This would have been less viable at Durands Wharf as even then there was (relatively new) housing all round. However having the station down a sleepy back-street wouldn't have made the business case much better! And looking at the aerial photos shows there's not that much housing in the area even now, which contributes to making the peninsula one of the relatively few parts of London which is actually relatively peaceful and pleasant.

The other thing I suppose is that Salter Road and Redriff Road (effectively a spine road for the area) are generally uncongested, so it's one place where jumping on a bus to a railhead such as Canada Water is quite workable. There's also the option of using Rotherhithe station for those near to that.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm guessing that a 'box' type station might have been possible utilising the open space immediately to the west of the Downtown Road shaft. This would have been less viable at Durands Wharf as even then there was (relatively new) housing all round. However having the station down a sleepy back-street wouldn't have made the business case much better! And looking at the aerial photos shows there's not that much housing in the area even now, which contributes to making the peninsula one of the relatively few parts of London which is actually relatively peaceful and pleasant.

The other thing I suppose is that Salter Road and Redriff Road (effectively a spine road for the area) are generally uncongested, so it's one place where jumping on a bus to a railhead such as Canada Water is quite workable. There's also the option of using Rotherhithe station for those near to that.

The box would have to be fairly deep though, at least enough to allow for level platforms, and the nearer the river, the deeper it would have to be.

 

[endicomark69@g]

On a related topic, I recall reading something about how - in earlier planning stages at least - there was no guarantee that a JLE station on the Rotherhithe peninsula (i.e. what would become Canada Water) would offer a direct interchange with the East London Line, which was at the time a rather sleepy backwater of the Underground network.

This would (thankfully) have been resolved by the time you were working on the project, but I wonder if it's something you can comment on?

By the time of my involvement this had long been settled with finished designs/locations (and actual construction!) so I can't really add anything useful on that.

Anyone looking at a Map now would think it utterly bizarre that the issue of stations at Bermondsey and an Interchange at Canada Water wouldn't have been obvious and essential.

But what is something to emphasise is just how much "pressure" both financial and political was being brought to bear on the Project by Canary Wharf (and the Development Corp and various Govt Depts) who at various points absolutely didn't give a stuff about intermediate stations from London Bridge and just wanted a quick, straight shot to their station for those populating those shiny new Towers. It was being sold as a major plus point in their battle with The City to attract top-level financial services that transport links would not only be fast but also semi-exclusive.

Thankfully Reality won out, but I remember even Managers in Ops (who should have known better) STILL bemoaning what was happening to projected run-times on the Extension and how this complicated trying to run a turning service at NOG that would maintain the "promised" service level to Canary Wharf.

All of this was in a time before Stratford (and the Olympics) became a commercial hub with plenty of clout in its own right.

 

[Enthusiast]

What's the "as the crow flies" distance between Canada Water and Canary Wharf? Over 3 km / 2 miles? Is that the longest distance between two stations on the Jubilee Line?

The rail distance is 1.5m and that is probably not much different to "as the crow flies". There is only one pair of stations on the Jubilee that are farther apart and that is Kingsbury to Wembley Park. That is 1.77m, though of course not under ground.

 

[rebmcr]

The rail distance is 1.5m and that is probably not much different to "as the crow flies". There is only one pair of stations on the Jubilee that are farther apart and that is Kingsbury to Wembley Park. That is 1.77m, though of course not under ground.

Think you mean mi (miles) not m (metres).

 

[Enthusiast]

Think you mean mi (miles) not m (metres).

Yes I do mean miles. Thanks for the correction.

 

[SynthD]

Thankfully Reality won out, but I remember even Managers in Ops (who should have known better) STILL bemoaning what was happening to projected run-times on the Extension and how this complicated trying to run a turning service at NOG that would maintain the "promised" service level to Canary Wharf.

All of this was in a time before Stratford (and the Olympics) became a commercial hub with plenty of clout in its own right.

Were Stratford and West Ham transfers considered important for Canary Wharf commuters?

 

[Dr Hoo]

As if to emphasise how ‘spread out’ stations in that area are:

Canning Town is in the old ceremonial county of Essex, North Greenwich in the old ceremonial county of Kent, Canary Wharf in the old ceremonial county of Middlesex and Canada Water in the old ceremonial county of Surrey.

The shortest and quickest rail journey with stations in four counties, I believe.

 

[rebmcr]

As if to emphasise how ‘spread out’ stations in that area are:

Canning Town is in the old ceremonial county of Essex, North Greenwich in the old ceremonial county of Kent, Canary Wharf in the old ceremonial county of Middlesex and Canada Water in the old ceremonial county of Surrey.

The shortest and quickest rail journey with stations in four counties, I believe.

That's the result of deliberately having many river crossings, the spacing is inconsequential.

 

[bramling]

By the time of my involvement this had long been settled with finished designs/locations (and actual construction!) so I can't really add anything useful on that.

Anyone looking at a Map now would think it utterly bizarre that the issue of stations at Bermondsey and an Interchange at Canada Water wouldn't have been obvious and essential.

But what is something to emphasise is just how much "pressure" both financial and political was being brought to bear on the Project by Canary Wharf (and the Development Corp and various Govt Depts) who at various points absolutely didn't give a stuff about intermediate stations from London Bridge and just wanted a quick, straight shot to their station for those populating those shiny new Towers. It was being sold as a major plus point in their battle with The City to attract top-level financial services that transport links would not only be fast but also semi-exclusive.

Thankfully Reality won out, but I remember even Managers in Ops (who should have known better) STILL bemoaning what was happening to projected run-times on the Extension and how this complicated trying to run a turning service at NOG that would maintain the "promised" service level to Canary Wharf.

All of this was in a time before Stratford (and the Olympics) became a commercial hub with plenty of clout in its own right.

Indeed the development of Stratford doesn’t seem to have been envisaged to the extent that things have turned out. It’s quite ironic as the place is still something of a dump in parts.

 

[dmncf]

I hope the OP, Cloud Strife, and Rail Forums are receiving a share of the advertising revenue from this MyLondon article based on this thread!

https://www.mylondon.news/lifestyle/travel/london-underground-tourist-tube-thinks-26684426

 

[Joe Paxton]

I hope the OP, Cloud Strife, and Rail Forums are receiving a share of the advertising revenue from this MyLondon article based on this thread!

https://www.mylondon.news/lifestyle/travel/london-underground-tourist-tube-thinks-26684426

Churnalism at its finest!

 

[Mikey C]

I hope the OP, Cloud Strife, and Rail Forums are receiving a share of the advertising revenue from this MyLondon article based on this thread!

https://www.mylondon.news/lifestyle/travel/london-underground-tourist-tube-thinks-26684426

I feel most offended that I wasn't quoted!

A comment I made on a different message board, ended up being quoted in The Sun, who are clearly more informed as to who the important contributors are

 

[Taunton]

The line at that point is on a notable downgrade from Canada Water to get under the River Thames (and up on the other side, though not as much, as it needs to go down again to get to North Greenwich); this can be felt in the train. There may be geology to consider as well, as getting down to that depth may well be putting it beneath the London Clay, and down into the chalk underneath - a formation readily apparent as the excavations for Crossrail Canary Wharf station progressed.

A station against the Thames bank is a poor traffic generator, as by definition half the potential catchment area is not there. If it was the DLR then it would be reasonable to have that spacing, but not for a more mainstream longer distance urban system.

The stations on the Jubilee near the Thames had to have considerable protection built against the prospect of the river substantially flooding; this is particularly noticeable near Canning Town tunnel portals. Such protections are a considerable expense.

If we want another Underground station inserted, there are better candidates - maybe starting with Bloomsbury, halfway between Kings Cross and Farringdon, and while we are at it on the Circle inserting a proper station outside the door where it passes right in front at Euston to replace the remote Euston Square.