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Why So Many New EMU Classes?

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WatcherZero

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On the topic of plethora of classes, Ziyang are in the next couple of months shipping over a 125mph Intercity and 100mph semi-fast for trials at two different tocs. Does anyone know which two tocs and whether their going to be the Electric or diesel versions as the models come in both?

I presume the intercity is going to Grand Central still?
 
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jopsuk

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But as we said- the 450/444 are as new, and have the pantograph well (as does the 458)- the numbering is not as sensible as you like to think. It isn't that neat!
 

starrymarkb

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As I understood it (and I'm not an expert) the 319s have Thyristors and Chopper control while the 317 still had the older style.
 

hairyhandedfool

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....The reason why there is an additional rectifier associated with the battery charger is because it is on the 240V AC circuit that comes off the tertiary winding. Therefore it needs to rectify this to DC in order to charge the batteries.

However, as jopsuk says, transformers do not rectify AC to DC. All they can do is to step the voltage up or down....

....If the 110V supply is coming from the batteries it must be DC.

However, I can still see the need for an inverter (to convert DC to AC) on a Cl319. As I said earlier, the Cl319 still requires a 240V AC supply for it's on-train systems. While this is easy to come by for a unit on the OLE (from the transformer's tertiary winding on a Cl317, for example), a unit that runs on the CRE has no ready access to AC power. Therefore it needs to generate it's own from the DC supply that it is getting via it's shoes....

The term "rectifiers" rings some bells actually, maybe my memory of the electrics wasn't as good as I thought, although "Inverters" doesn't. I'm not entirely sure where in the training I remember rectifiers from first though.:oops:

The alternator must be the invertor and also step down the power, but if the 317 uses two windings to get to 920v, then that doesn't explain my memory of the transformer doing it in one stage and the alternator stepping down twice for 240v and 110v.:?

In order to supply the TMs 920/900v the Transformer would have to do it before it hits the smoothing choke, the DC would already be at 750v at this point. So the Transformer steps down twice and the Alternator once? That's really not how I remember it.:?

Electronics was never my strong point at school and memories of 319s from five years ago are somewhat sketchy it seems.
 

O L Leigh

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The term "rectifiers" rings some bells actually, maybe my memory of the electrics wasn't as good as I thought, although "Inverters" doesn't. I'm not entirely sure where in the training I remember rectifiers from first though.:oops:

Transformer: Steps the voltage of AC either up or down.
Rectifier: Converts AC into DC.
Inverter: Converts DC into AC.

The alternator must be the invertor and also step down the power, but if the 317 uses two windings to get to 920v, then that doesn't explain my memory of the transformer doing it in one stage and the alternator stepping down twice for 240v and 110v.:?

The Cl317 transformer only uses one winding to to get the voltage down to 920V AC, the secondary winding.

Imagine the transformer to be a box with one input and two outputs. 25kV AC goes in to the box through the input (primary winding) and from one output comes 920V AC (secondary winding) and 240V AC (tertiary winding). Effectively what you have is two transformers in one.

Each winding inside the transformer is formed of an iron core around which copper wire is wound. As an alternating current is passed into one of the windings it generates a magnetic field that acts on each of the other windings and induces a current in it. The voltage of the current induced in the other windings depends on the number of turns in the copper wire on the iron core and the voltage being fed into the primary winding. Therefore when the primary winding is energised at 25kV AC it induces a current at 920V AC in the secondary winding and 240V AC in the tertiary winding.

The 240V AC is being supplied from it's own winding directly from the 25kV AC system the same as the 920V AC for the traction supply and not stepped down again from the 920V AC supply. They are both seperate systems that originate in the transformer, so you have:

25kV AC -> 920V AC (Traction supply from the secondary winding)
25kV AC -> 240V AC (On-train systems supply from the tertiary winding)

The only two-step process you have is the 110V DC supply for the battery charger which takes the 240V AC supply.

In order to supply the TMs 920/900v the Transformer would have to do it before it hits the smoothing choke, the DC would already be at 750v at this point. So the Transformer steps down twice and the Alternator once? That's really not how I remember it.:?

I'm not sure if the DC from the CRE has to go through the smoothing chokes at all as it is already a useable power source and not the choppy looking rectified AC that comes out the other end of the thyristors. But yes, the smoothing chokes are the last piece of kit the power from the OLE goes through before it hits the traction equipment cases. Basically the chain the traction supply follows is:

OLE (25kV AC) -> Transformer Secondary Winding (920V AC) -> Thyristor Converters (920V Rectified AC) -> Smoothing Chokes (900V DC) -> Traction Equipment -> Traction Motors (0-900V DC) -> Return Path

The inverter on the Cl319 is there to turn 750V DC from the CRE into 240V AC for the on-train systems and, by extension, power at 110V DC for the battery charger. The transformer doesn't step down twice, it steps down just the once though it can produce two outputs at different voltages.

Electronics was never my strong point at school and memories of 319s from five years ago are somewhat sketchy it seems.

No, nor me. And my traction training was about the same time ago. I'm having to make copious reference to my "Big Book of the Class 317".

O L Leigh
 
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On the topic of plethora of classes, Ziyang are in the next couple of months shipping over a 125mph Intercity and 100mph semi-fast for trials at two different tocs. Does anyone know which two tocs and whether their going to be the Electric or diesel versions as the models come in both?

I presume the intercity is going to Grand Central still?

I don't know where that came from. CSR (Puzhen, not Ziyang) is working with CSRE to offer three products, and some TOCs are showing interest, but for months, read years.
 

Skimble19

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I don't know where that came from. CSR (Puzhen, not Ziyang) is working with CSRE to offer three products, and some TOCs are showing interest, but for months, read years.
I believe the OP is partially correct, having read somewhere (RAIL I think) that they do intend to send a couple of them over for tests with TOC's at some point, but strangely not their regional product..
 
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Re: Class 319 and the power supply arrangements :

On AC Working, 25,000v AC is inputted through the pantograph from the OLE, down the HT cable through the PMS coach to the primary winding of the main transformer.

There, it is stepped down to 913v AC, and passed into the rectifiers, where it is converted into 750v DC current, then placed through the smoothing choke into the Motor contactor cases, before being fed to each group of traction motors on the motor bogies. (GEC Traction equipment)

In all of this process, all of the 'hotel' systems, and control circuits, are powered by 110v DC from the batteries, which are charged from the Motor Alternator under the ATS coach. The 110v DC comes from a second small transformer under the ATS taking its power feed from the Motor Alternator, hence if there are battery problems on a 319 you don't have much time left!

On DC Working, the 750v is picked up by the shoegear from the Conductor Rail, through the shoe fuses, power supply cable and into the DC bus line, where it is fed into the smoothing choke by a switch which is used on the AC/DC changeover.
 

DjU

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I believe the OP is partially correct, having read somewhere (RAIL I think) that they do intend to send a couple of them over for tests with TOC's at some point, but strangely not their regional product..

The tocs testing them are apparantly under confidentiality clause.

I believe Kingfisher200262 is the Managing Director of CSRE, he might have a little more of a clue of what is happening :)
 

Skimble19

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Indeed, hopefully he'll see this thread and no doubt correct us :lol:

As for a confidentiality clause, how would that work? Surely it's literally impossible to get them in and test them without anyone noticing?
 
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Indeed, hopefully he'll see this thread and no doubt correct us :lol:

As for a confidentiality clause, how would that work? Surely it's literally impossible to get them in and test them without anyone noticing?

I think you'll find that things will become clearer soon, but as has been said, there are presently issues of confidentiality.

What I can say is that vehicles won't be arriving for some time yet.
 

RobShipway

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I think you'll find that things will become clearer soon, but as has been said, there are presently issues of confidentiality.

What I can say is that vehicles won't be arriving for some time yet.

So would I be correct in thinking that the tme frame for the CSRE trains to arrive in this country is anything from 3 months to 2 years time?
 

Skimble19

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Well, good luck with it, hopefully the orders will roll in :) We could do with a new breed of trains, all these constant delays and faults with new Bombardier stock is getting a little tiresome. Besides, as anyone who's been on CSRE's site will know, it'll certainly be a step-up in the quality of train interiors!!
 
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