Why was Wales and West broken up?

[387star]

Seems odd to create two franchises running alongside one another then let them to the same operator (national express) who in this case used a very similar livery...

was it always assumed wessex would be merged with first great western and there would be one operator for wales?

Or was it a permanent fixture at the time do we know?

a bit like the southern southeastern situation now

 

[Eagle]

It was mainly to create a unified Wales franchise (from half of W&W, Valley Lines, and bits of CT and FNW). Wessex was always going to be a rump franchise, although I have no idea if it was known back then that it would be merged into the GW.

The fact that both ended up with NX seems to be coincidence. In fact at the time NX owned W&W, VL and CT so very little actually changed operatorwise :P

Southern and Southeastern, again that's just coincidence (and has only been like that since 2006). There are many examples past and present of one operator holding adjacent franchises.

 

[tbtc]

Wessex was always going to be a rump franchise, although I have no idea if it was known back then that it would be merged into the GW

IIRC there were suggestions that Wessex would be a stand alone franchise and would include the diesel parts of SWT* (i.e. the Waterloo - Exeter line and the "Salisbury Six"), but that may never have been a serious option (hard to remember what was "informed speculation" back then and what was just "speculation"!)

(* - no, not the Lymington branch, before anyone says anything )

 

[Eagle]

Although the Salisbury Six wouldn't exist for another three years at that point, and Wessex was providing the only service between Salisbury and Southampton.

 

[wintonian]

It was mainly to create a unified Wales franchise (from half of W&W, Valley Lines, and bits of CT and FNW). Wessex was always going to be a rump franchise, although I have no idea if it was known back then that it would be merged into the GW.

The politics of devolution I presume?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Seems odd to create two franchises running alongside one another then let them to the same operator (national express) who in this case used a very similar livery...
was it always assumed wessex would be merged with first great western and there would be one operator for wales?
Or was it a permanent fixture at the time do we know?
a bit like the southern southeastern situation now

The first round of franchises included:
GW (GWH/First), Thames (Go-Ahead), Wales & West (Prism/NX) and Cardiff Railways (Prism/NX).
Mid-Wales was run by Central (NX) and North Wales by NWT (First).
This was pretty much as BR had left it.
The SRA decided to reconfigure them all in 2003, because they wanted (a) bigger franchises, (b) one operator into Paddington and (c) one franchise for Wales.

So "Greater Western" included old GW, Thames and the Wessex part of Wales & West and was won by First.
"Wales & Borders" included Cardiff Railways and the Welsh bits of Wales & West, Central and North Western (and quite a lot of lines into England as well), and was won by Arriva.
Wales & Borders was in fact created by renaming Cardiff Railways and then folding in the bits of the other franchises into it.

Wales & West and Cardiff Railways were originally run by Prism before they sold out to NX in 2000.
North Wales had three operators within three months in 2003 - Wales & Borders was formed under NX and took over services from First in September, only to hand over to Arriva in December.

 

[tbtc]

Although the Salisbury Six wouldn't exist for another three years at that point

Fair point!

 

[Eagle]

Fair point!

Of course it certainly would have gone to Wessex upon Chandler's Ford opening, had the split occurred.

 

[Helvellyn]

IIRC there were suggestions that Wessex would be a stand alone franchise and would include the diesel parts of SWT* (i.e. the Waterloo - Exeter line and the "Salisbury Six"), but that may never have been a serious option (hard to remember what was "informed speculation" back then and what was just "speculation"!)

(* - no, not the Lymington branch, before anyone says anything )

I recall seeing a Wessex mousemat at work a few years ago that included Waterloo-Exeter being marked up as a "future route". If I recall correctly, the main reason why it was proposed to transfer this route to Wessex was because the Wessex franchise did not have a major Traction & Rolling Stock Maintenance Depot of its own, which it would have got in Salisbury. It would also have been a relatively seamless transfer, as virtually all Waterloo-Salisbury-Exeter services are worked by Salisbury crews, so it would have been the entire Salisbury operation transferred over to Wessex.

The downside of this move though would have been that Waterloo wouldhave gone from a one operator London Terminal to a two operator terminal, which is the opposite of what was achieved by Thames Trains and Great Western coming together at Paddington.

In my opinion, the mistake of merging Wessex and Great Western was that the Portsmouth-Cardiff service wasn't transferred to SWT (even if it was cut back to Portsmouth-Bristol), as in my view it's a more logical fit for route/TOC.

 

[Eagle]

The downside of this move though would have been that Waterloo wouldhave gone from a one operator London Terminal to a two operator terminal, which is the opposite of what was achieved by Thames Trains and Great Western coming together at Paddington.

Waterloo was a two-operator terminal (just about) at the time; Wales and West ran a few services there from various places in their area.

 

[Michael.Y]

Waterloo was a two-operator terminal (just about) at the time; Wales and West ran a few services there from various places in their area.

Indeed - including at seat catering services on the 158s overnights from Cardiff! So I've been told anyway!

 

[TEW]

I recall seeing a Wessex mousemat at work a few years ago that included Waterloo-Exeter being marked up as a "future route".

It appeared on all the maps produced by Wessex for a while, including the ones in timetables. Not sure how long it was before it was removed though.

 

[quarella]

Waterloo was a two-operator terminal (just about) at the time; Wales and West ran a few services there from various places in their area.

In the early post privatisation years Waterloo was served by 3 TOCs due to the regional Eurostar plans. As has been mentioned Wales and West (Carmarthen - Waterloo and the overnight Waterloo - Maesteg. Great Western Trains also ran some services and this route knowledge was very useful after either the Southall or Ladbroke Grove crashes.

The separation of the Wales bit was political to create an all Wales franchise and instead of complaining about the English TOC providing a rubbish service the North Walians now blame Cardiff based politicians and TOC HQ for what they perceive as a poor service.

 

[Gareth Marston]

In the early post privatisation years Waterloo was served by 3 TOCs due to the regional Eurostar plans. As has been mentioned Wales and West (Carmarthen - Waterloo and the overnight Waterloo - Maesteg. Great Western Trains also ran some services and this route knowledge was very useful after either the Southall or Ladbroke Grove crashes.

The separation of the Wales bit was political to create an all Wales franchise and instead of complaining about the English TOC providing a rubbish service the North Walians now blame Cardiff based politicians and TOC HQ for what they perceive as a poor service.

I know of no one in Mid Wales who campaigned for Cardiff control.

The North Wales coast at privatisation was dire what little investment RR had, had not particularity filtered down it still had heritage DMU's, loco hauled and Pacers stuck on back of 156 to Llandudno for summer strengthening. The 175's ordered by FNW were mechanical junk for their first few years of live.

 

[merlodlliw]

I know of no one in Mid Wales who campaigned for Cardiff control.

The North Wales coast at privatisation was dire what little investment RR had, had not particularity filtered down it still had heritage DMU's, loco hauled and Pacers stuck on back of 156 to Llandudno for summer strengthening. The 175's ordered by FNW were mechanical junk for their first few years of live.

I have yet to meet anyone who traveled on the train in North Wales also campaigning for Cardiff control at that time, I also recall at the time of privitisation clapped out Heritage dmus etc. A train every two hours Wrexham to Chester which few used,

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In the early post privatisation years Waterloo was served by 3 TOCs due to the regional Eurostar plans. As has been mentioned Wales and West (Carmarthen - Waterloo and the overnight Waterloo - Maesteg. Great Western Trains also ran some services and this route knowledge was very useful after either the Southall or Ladbroke Grove crashes.

The separation of the Wales bit was political to create an all Wales franchise and instead of complaining about the English TOC providing a rubbish service the North Walians now blame Cardiff based politicians and TOC HQ for what they perceive as a poor service.

It was as you say a political move,the downfall being WAG was sold a pup with no growth, according to ATWs hand outs, they only had to inject capital of £400K within the 15 year franchise.
In the real world of business, no growth means you eventually go bust,but rail privitisation was not in the real world, unfortunately many Politicians have no business acumen.

 

[Squaddie]

I know of no one in Mid Wales who campaigned for Cardiff control.

I have yet to meet anyone who traveled on the train in North Wales also campaigning for Cardiff control at that time...

I doubt that the vast majority of rail passengers care who has "control" over their rail service: all they care about is the frequency, punctuality and (in my experience, to a surprisingly lesser extent) the comfort of their service. If specifically asked, however, it's likely that a majority of Welsh passengers would express a preference for their rail service to be controlled from somewhere in Wales rather than from England, even if such an opinion is based upon nothing more than a sense of national pride.

I also recall at the time of privitisation clapped out Heritage dmus etc. A train every two hours Wrexham to Chester which few used.

So, are you saying that the train service between Chester and Wrexham has improved since Cardiff took control?

 

[merlodlliw]

I doubt that the vast majority of rail passengers care who has "control" over their rail service: all they care about is the frequency, punctuality and (in my experience, to a surprisingly lesser extent) the comfort of their service. If specifically asked, however, it's likely that a majority of Welsh passengers would express a preference for their rail service to be controlled from somewhere in Wales rather than from England, even if such an opinion is based upon nothing more than a sense of national pride.

So, are you saying that the train service between Chester and Wrexham has improved since Cardiff took control?

It started to improve when Central took over the Route,brand new Bombardier trains were like a breath of fresh air.Plus extra services from them.

As its the Wales & Borders franchise covering both Countries national pride works both ways,though I agree many pax could not care less where its controlled from.

 

[387star]

I also remember SWT operating a service from Portsmouth to Paignton? I remember joining it at Cosham and it was a 5-car unit formed of a 159 and a 170

 

[fgwrich]

I also remember SWT operating a service from Portsmouth to Paignton? I remember joining it at Cosham and it was a 5-car unit formed of a 159 and a 170

Ah, the old Portsmouth to Paignton. IIRC this was a former NSE Legacy which used to share a 73/50 combination for a while.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I doubt that the vast majority of rail passengers care who has "control" over their rail service: all they care about is the frequency, punctuality and (in my experience, to a surprisingly lesser extent) the comfort of their service. If specifically asked, however, it's likely that a majority of Welsh passengers would express a preference for their rail service to be controlled from somewhere in Wales rather than from England, even if such an opinion is based upon nothing more than a sense of national pride.

So, are you saying that the train service between Chester and Wrexham has improved since Cardiff took control?

You'd be surprised at the attitude of many of Mid Walains to Cardiff and the Welsh Government but they still support the Wales Rugby Team.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It started to improve when Central took over the Route,brand new Bombardier trains were like a breath of fresh air.Plus extra services from them.

Yes we had brand new 3 car Class 170's on the key trains out of Aberystwyth and good mixes of 3,4 and even 5 car trains the last summer (2001) of Central. It then went pear shaped when Wales and Borders took over, appalling punctuality, Wolverhampton turnarounds only 2 cars..........

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not taken long to descend into North-South Wales bashing has it?
More to the original Wales & West point though, we had Manchester-Marches-Bristol-Waterloo/Penzance services from W&W which are much missed.

 

[Eagle]

I'm never sure entirely what happened to those; my sources tell me that ATW were still serving Penzance as late as 2005.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm never sure entirely what happened to those; my sources tell me that ATW were still serving Penzance as late as 2005.

I think ATW continued to run a Cardiff to Penzance train until FGW took it over, as part of the W&W transition arrangements.
One of the curious results of the franchise remapping was that (after this train was transferred) ATW did not run through the Severn Tunnel.
So despite running long services to Manchester and Birmingham they do not operate relatively short services to Bristol.
Maybe electrification will change that.

 

[TEW]

It was just before FGW took over that ATW ceased operating cross border services to Bristol and beyond. This was apparently a political move to allow ATW to focus its stock on providing services within Wales. They still provided maintenance and train crew well into FGW days though.

 

[43074]

Another reason why ATW didn't continue serving Devon & Cornwall might have had something to do with their Standard Pattern Timetable introduced in December 2005. I assume it was difficult for them to timetable their Bristol and beyond services to a standard pattern, in addition to the fact that they needed more rolling stock for their extra internal services (e.g. Cardiff to Holyhead).

 

[Gareth Marston]

Another reason why ATW didn't continue serving Devon & Cornwall might have had something to do with their Standard Pattern Timetable introduced in December 2005. I assume it was difficult for them to timetable their Bristol and beyond services to a standard pattern, in addition to the fact that they needed more rolling stock for their extra internal services (e.g. Cardiff to Holyhead).

The SRA was very keen on neat franchise boundary's in franchising version 1.87 or whatever it was at the time and the stock was needed for the Holyheads. To hell that they were well loaded popular trains.

 

[387star]

It was just before FGW took over that ATW ceased operating cross border services to Bristol and beyond. This was apparently a political move to allow ATW to focus its stock on providing services within Wales. They still provided maintenance and train crew well into FGW days though.

that might explaain why I once had a central trains liveried class 158 with a arriva trains wales guard operated I think by FGW

Don't FGW still operate a service from Cardiff-Penzance? where did the ATW service go to?

 

[Drsatan]

that might explaain why I once had a central trains liveried class 158 with a arriva trains wales guard operated I think by FGW

Don't FGW still operate a service from Cardiff-Penzance? where did the ATW service go to?

FGW operate a SSux 0600 service from Penzance to Cardiff, arriving at Cardiff at 1218. IIRC it's typically booked for a 150.

ATW operated a limited Penzance to Cardiff service until the December 2005 timetable change which introduced clockface times on all internal routes. I remember standing at Bodmin Parkway station and seeing a 153 on an ATW Penzance - Cardiff service one evening - I'm fairly certain a few years prior the service was more frequent but by then ATW only operated one or two services a day west of Bristol TM.

 

[anthony263]

that might explaain why I once had a central trains liveried class 158 with a arriva trains wales guard operated I think by FGW

Don't FGW still operate a service from Cardiff-Penzance? where did the ATW service go to?

I think there is one train from Tauntoin to Cardiff which starts from Penzance not sure if there is a working heading the other way from Cardiff but there are a few from Bristol.

There are Cardiff - Paignton & Cardiff - Plymouth services

The latter leaves Cardiff at 09:00 ariving into Plymouth at 12:42

 

[43074]

where did the ATW service go to?

Arriva Trains Wales' services that operated from Wales to the South West were (12 June - 10 December 2005 Timetable):
06:40 Camarthen - Penzance
07:05 Pembroke Dock - Exeter St Davids
10:35 Milford Haven/10:50 Manchester Piccadilly - Penzance

06:24 Penzance - Crewe/Milford Haven
14:37 Exeter St Davids - Milford Haven
14:53 Penzance - Swansea

Wessex Trains also operated these (Alphaline) trains:
06:00 Cardiff Central - Penzance
15:05 Portsmouth Harbour - Penzance
17:00 Cardiff Central - Exeter St Davids (the Cardiff to Taunton stoppers didn't exist then)

07:47 Penzance - Portsmouth Harbour
10:25 Penzance - Cardiff Central


The ATW services ceased to run after 10 December 2005, and the Wessex Trains ones didn't last much longer either.