Wind Power and UK Energy Use

[richard_S]

With the cost of electricity so high would network rail benefit from installing wind turbines at stations where there was a regular good wind speed? It could help in keeping costs down.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

You would have the age old CapEx-OpEx balance. There would be quite a high capex - capital expenditure- before any operational benefits could be realised. Also there would likely be some disruption while installing. As I understand it, these are the key issues with electrification which is reasonably proven to lower operational (OpEx) costs when installed.

 

[Wapps]

Would be much simpler for NR to enter into a power purchase agreement with a wind farm owner to sell the power from that wind farm to NR over the national grid.

Rooftop solar on stations may make more sense that wind turbines. Cheaper capex and may be paid upfront by the provider who would recover it back from NR over time.

 

[richard_S]

Would be much simpler for NR to enter into a power purchase agreement with a wind farm owner to sell the power from that wind farm to NR over the national grid.

Rooftop solar on stations may make more sense that wind turbines. Cheaper capex and may be paid upfront by the provider who would recover it back from NR over time.

Rooftop solar is OK for station requirements but no good for traction.

 

[takno]

Rooftop solar is OK for station requirements but no good for traction.

How big are the windmills you're thinking of? Nobody is going to let the railway build a full-on wind farm using permitted development rights, and while you could theoretically use the overhead line network to distribute some of the power, it would complicate things quite a lot.

There was a proposal a couple of years ago to use trackside solar in third rail areas, which had some merit because it helped to remove some grid distribution issues. It's potentially possible to revisit that with more modern solar and battery tech, but I'm not convinced that wind would be a useful part of the mix.

 

[quantinghome]

With the cost of electricity so high would network rail benefit from installing wind turbines at stations where there was a regular good wind speed? It could help in keeping costs down.

Most stations in windy locations and outside built-up areas would be some distance from the electrified network. And the land owned by NR would probably be too small for it to make much difference.

The whole point of having an electricity grid is you can put generation where it's most convenient rather than where the end user happens to own land.

 

[thejuggler]

Any wind turbine of a size suitable to be installed at a station isn't worth having. They don't generate much power, are unreliable and need regular maintenance. Investing in the large windfarm schemes makes more sense.

 

[Sussex hammer]

Perhaps they could put a windmill on top of the train to power it! So the faster the train went the more power it produces.

.... Perhaps I haven't thought this through properly. The hastings line and its gauge limits the where the windmill can be put.

 

[Rob-M]

A couple of the stations I use regularly already have them installed. Horwich Parkway is supposedly powered by the turbine and there’s one at Westhoughton too, although I can’t find out much info on that.

Horwich Parkway railway station - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[swt_passenger]

How big are the windmills you're thinking of? Nobody is going to let the railway build a full-on wind farm using permitted development rights, and while you could theoretically use the overhead line network to distribute some of the power, it would complicate things quite a lot.

There was a proposal a couple of years ago to use trackside solar in third rail areas, which had some merit because it helped to remove some grid distribution issues. It's potentially possible to revisit that with more modern solar and battery tech, but I'm not convinced that wind would be a useful part of the mix.

@Bald Rick reckoned at the time the solar panels at Aldershot would supply about 1% of a four car EMU demand. So multiply the area required by about 200 to fully deal with a typical 8 car train? Is there room?

 

[Lurcheroo]

Machynlleth station has a wind Turbine!
Penychain station had its roof replaced not that long ago and some solar panels were out on that.

It all helps I suppose !

 

[Ken H]

Machynlleth station has a wind Turbine!
Penychain station had its roof replaced not that long ago and some solar panels were out on that.

It all helps I suppose !

As long as you have a gas turbine power station to make the leccy on cloudy, cold windless days. Like an anticyclone in February.

 

[takno]

@Bald Rick reckoned at the time the solar panels at Aldershot would supply about 1% of a four car EMU demand. So multiply the area required by about 200 to fully deal with a typical 8 car train? Is there room?

It was completely unviable at the time, but efficiency of solar panels has risen quite rapidly over time and the cost has dropped. At the same time the viability of batteries to support demand management in areas where the trains are relatively infrequent has improved. I'd guess that it's still essentially pointless, but it's worth keeping under review.

 

[Elecman]

Quite a few of the Avanti stations had them installed on the Multi storey car parks but they have all subsequently been removed

 

[SynthD]

Could south-facing embankments be covered by solar panels? Or does it complicate weeding and stability too much?

 

[6Gman]

Could south-facing embankments be covered by solar panels? Or does it complicate weeding and stability too much?

The railway would get in the way of maintaining the panels and the panels would get in the way of maintaining the railway.

 

[Bald Rick]

As long as you have a gas turbine power station to make the leccy on cloudy, cold windless days. Like an anticyclone in February.

Or lots of interconnectors to other countries where it is sunny / windy.

To answer the OP - solar panels are much easier to get consent for on railway property, and have been / will be used for powering domestic supplies with excess going back into the grid.

But to pick up on the premise - the price if electricity actually isnt that expensive in recent historical terms. The average ‘wholesale’ price for July was roughly the same as July last year, which was about 25% less than July 2021 and about a third of the price of July 2022.

 

[InTheEastMids]

How big are the windmills you're thinking of? Nobody is going to let the railway build a full-on wind farm using permitted development rights, and while you could theoretically use the overhead line network to distribute some of the power, it would complicate things quite a lot.

I agree, the permitted development powers NR has inside the railway boundary are not unlimited - it would only really be able to undertake developments for the continued operation or improvement of the railway. I don't see how wind turbines would meet this. So it's off to the local planning office to get consent, the same as any other developer.

Any wind turbine of a size suitable to be installed at a station isn't worth having. They don't generate much power, are unreliable and need regular maintenance. Investing in the large windfarm schemes makes more sense.

100% agree. There is a reason that the small wind turbine industry has all but disappeared since the first flush back around 2010. Small turbines can do a job for farmers where there is good wind resource, demand to offset, no impacted people and straightforward access for maintenance.

Network Rail may object to its own plans in many locations. For roads, turbines need to stand back 150% of their height and avoid blade flicker that distracts drivers.
I presume NR will have similar concerns.
Planning consent also means thinking about protected land, access, visual impact etc, so you're down-selecting to the following locations
- good wind resource, probably rural location on higher ground (NB railways are usually in valleys) or very flat areas (e.g. Lincs)
- no landscape protections (AONB/SSSI etc.)
- sufficient distance from the railway (topple/blade flicker)
- No/minimal impact on others (roads, houses etc.)

Wouldn't be at all surprised if the number of suitable sites was in fact 0

Could south-facing embankments be covered by solar panels? Or does it complicate weeding and stability too much?

Theory is yes, but one reason solar is so cheap is that most are in farmer's fields with decent access from the road, sheep can do some of the vegetation management, and locations tend to be where a grid connection is cost-effective. To put it another way - focusing on solar cell/module/panel costs is misleading as other project costs have become increasingly important.

For rail, accessing an embankment might be quite difficult (solar panels are heavy), and I would guess that any impact on rail services through possessions would kill the economics. Vegetation management appears more difficult. Cheaper to just use the PPA route from third party land (or potentially a private wire if there is local demand that can be offset).

@Bald Rick reckoned at the time the solar panels at Aldershot would supply about 1% of a four car EMU demand.

but efficiency of solar panels has risen quite rapidly over time and the cost has dropped

So with technical improvements you get to 1.5%... (that is not aligned to traction demand), the constraint is more likely to be available land.
I don't think it's a particularly helpful way to think about this topic in a technical sense. Renewable energy is intrinsically diffuse and transport energy demand in particular is incredibly energy-dense. So it's just not worth trying to spatially match up supply and transport demands.

 

[JLH4AC]

With the cost of electricity so high would network rail benefit from installing wind turbines at stations where there was a regular good wind speed? It could help in keeping costs down.

If there is suitable space for rooftop power generation be it solar or wind turbine it should be installed as it would give GBR extra income and we need more low-impact renewable installations. I doubt that there are many stations that are actually suitable for standalone wind turbines.

Rooftop solar is OK for station requirements but no good for traction.

Rooftop and standalone wind turbines are not good for traction either, the power demands of railway electrification are much greater than what a single turbine (Especially one small enough that it can be installed on a station site.) can generate and without feeding power directly into the national gird bulky on-site transformers would be needed to step the voltage from less than 1 KV to 25 KV.

 

[telstarbox]

Good to see the UK wind record was broken yet again this week at 22.5GW - might see 25 GW next year?

Also the latest government stats show record low energy consumption - does this mean we're all managing to live with less, such as more efficient appliances?

Source - December 2024 pdf here

Energy trends

Quarterly publication which presents data on the supply and demand of all the major fuels in the United Kingdom.

www.gov.uk

 

[Bald Rick]

Good to see the UK wind record was broken yet again this week at 22.5GW - might see 25 GW next year?

Also the latest government stats show record low energy consumption - does this mean we're all managing to live with less, such as more efficient appliances?

Source - December 2024 pdf here

Energy trends

Quarterly publication which presents data on the supply and demand of all the major fuels in the United Kingdom.

www.gov.uk

I think 25GW next year is unlikely, but in 2026, definitely, as most of the current Dogger Bank projects will be finished, along with East Anglia 3.

Electricity Demand is lower oversall partly because of more energy efficiency, but also partly because it has been, on average, warmer and therefore less demand for heating. However there is a forecast increase in electricity demand from now on, with a combination of EV charging, Heat pumps for heating, and data centres driving the growth.

 

[Trainbike46]

Quite a few of the Avanti stations had them installed on the Multi storey car parks but they have all subsequently been removed

why on earth would you take down solar panels after they've been installed and connected up?

Generally, having solar on rooftops of places that have an electricity connection anyway is pretty sensible - which is why solar panels have appeared on some stations, both in the UK and elsewhere.

 

[RichardAsh1981]

why on earth would you take down solar panels after they've been installed and connected up?

I read this as them having had toy wind turbines, in which case they likely came down because the alternative was fixing them which proved to be uneconomic.

I agree that we are very close to the point where it is worth putting solar panels on any roof which can structurally support them - I note that installers are now saying that even north facing roofs will now yield 50% of an ideal south facing roof and so will pay back over their lifetime. Better pricing for selling excess power to the grid would help (at the moment there seems to be only on really good deal, which is worrying).

 

[HSTEd]

Good to see the UK wind record was broken yet again this week at 22.5GW - might see 25 GW next year?

Also the latest government stats show record low energy consumption - does this mean we're all managing to live with less, such as more efficient appliances?

Source - December 2024 pdf here

Energy trends

Quarterly publication which presents data on the supply and demand of all the major fuels in the United Kingdom.

www.gov.uk

It is likely a result of the warm winter and high prices destroying demand.

Obviously the latter will have an impact on economic growth and on the wellbeing of the population.

 

[Magdalia]

It is likely a result of the warm winter and high prices destroying demand.

Obviously the latter will have an impact on economic growth and on the wellbeing of the population.

And that impact will be positive, because the population will be able to spend what they have saved by using less energy to buy other goods and services instead.

 

[Bald Rick]

And that impact will be positive, because the population will be able to spend what they have saved by using less energy to buy other goods and services instead.

Agreed.


Meanwhile, some draft data for 2024, with comparisons to 2023 and 2019 (5 years ago and last full year before Covid), all are annual averages for the Grid, taken from the Electric Insights data portal:

Demand 29.6GW, exactly the same as 2023, but -9% on the 32.58GW of 2019

Price / kWh. £70.76, -24% on 2023, but +69% to 2019

Carbon emissions 119g/kWh, -18% on 2023, and -38% to 2019 (and -71% to 10 years ago)

Average temperature of 11.71C, colder than the 11.94C in 2023, but warmer than the 11.37C in 2019 (where this is measured, I don’t know, Drax presumably!)


Gas generation: 8.23GW down 16% to 2023, down 37% to 2019
Solar : 1.48GW up 13% to 2023, up 19% to 2019
Wind : 9.54GW up 5% to 2023, up 44% to 2019
Imports: 4.36GW up 14.3% to 2023, up 53% to 2019
Nuclear: 4.37GW exactly same as 2023, down 28% to 2019

The other generation (Biomass, Coal, Hydro, etc) is all roughly the same and between them provide about 3GW, most of which is Biomass.


Interesting (to me at least!) that demand in 2024 was the same as 2023, but emissions fell significantly, due to imports and wind replacing gas. Solar increased by 0.17GW, despite it being about 10% less sunny on average (data from UK Government website). Imports were also up, mostly because the Viking link interconnector was commissioned right at the end of 2023 and has been supplying us with (generally) excess Danish wind and solar power through 2024. I expect the increases in UK wind and solar to be replicated (and more) in 2025 and 2026, and therefore expect emissions from electricity generation to drop to an average of less than 100g/kWh in 2026. That compares to 415g/kWh in 2014.

I hope some people find this interesting.

 

[Magdalia]

I hope some people find this interesting.

Thanks. I do!

Imports were also up, mostly because the Viking link interconnector was commissioned right at the end of 2023 and has been supplying us with (generally) excess Danish wind and solar power through 2024.

Especially this bit. Imports impact on emissions depends on how the imported electricity is generated.

 

[stuu]

I'm very surprised solar is only up 19% on 2019, I thought lots more had gone in recently, although obviously the terrible weather will have affected that

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Most stations in windy locations and outside built-up areas would be some distance from the electrified network. And the land owned by NR would probably be too small for it to make much difference.
The whole point of having an electricity grid is you can put generation where it's most convenient rather than where the end user happens to own land.

There's a huge wind farm either side of the WCML on the hills above Beattock - just the right place to feed the uphill railway where power is most needed.
NR has been getting its power from EdF (ie French nuclear is in the mix) for the last decade - I think the contract is up for renewal.

 

[Trainbike46]

I read this as them having had toy wind turbines, in which case they likely came down because the alternative was fixing them which proved to be uneconomic.

that would make more sense

I agree that we are very close to the point where it is worth putting solar panels on any roof which can structurally support them - I note that installers are now saying that even north facing roofs will now yield 50% of an ideal south facing roof and so will pay back over their lifetime. Better pricing for selling excess power to the grid would help (at the moment there seems to be only on really good deal, which is worrying).

In a railway context, the obvious ones are (non-listed) station roofs, as well as the roofs of other buildings such as depots. Listed buildings can sometimes be done (I know of multiple examples of listed buildings being fitted with solar panels), but it is more effort so likely not where you would start.

I hope some people find this interesting.

Very interesting, thank you for sharing!

There's a huge wind farm either side of the WCML on the hills above Beattock - just the right place to feed the uphill railway where power is most needed.
NR has been getting its power from EdF (ie French nuclear is in the mix) for the last decade - I think the contract is up for renewal.

If I remember correctly, NR's contract was fully nuclear - mostly of the British variety. Remember EDF owns and operates all UK nuclear power stations!