Withdrawal of CIV tickets by ATOC

[John @ home]

There is a meeting of the Fares & Ticketing Committee of London Travelwatch tomorrow (18 February) and one of the items on the Agenda is

9 12.05 Any other business
Any other relevant business of which due notice has been given.
i) Withdrawal of CIV (Conditions Internationales de Vente – International Conditions of Sale) tickets by the Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC)
http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/4051/get

Less than 5 minutes is allocated to this item.

It will be interesting to find out how any such withdrawal would be consistent with Condition 8 of the National Conditions of Carriage

8. International journeys
These Conditions do not apply if a ticket is issued for an international rail journey within Europe (including any journey wholly within one country to connect with an international rail journey). In such cases, carriage is subject to:
(a) the Uniform Rules concerning the Contract for International Carriage of Passengers and Luggage by Rail (CIV), these being appendix A to the Convention concerning International Carriage by Rail (COTIF) of 9 May 1980 in the version of the Protocol of Modification of 3 June 1999. Both documents are available from the website of the Intergovernmental Organisation for International Carriage by Rail (OTIF) which is: www.otif.org;
(b) to the extent provided in the CIV, the conditions of carriage of the carrier in question.

The meeting is open to the public. I will attend as a member of the public and update this thread afterwards.

 

[northwichcat]

I thought the CIV option was only to allow passengers changing between Eurostar and domestic services to be allowed to catch the next service if one is delayed. I didn't think there was any additional compensation involved, so why should ATOC object?

 

[Greenback]

Does it also apply to international through tickets by ship?

 

[LondonLarry]

Isn't there supposed to be seperate (albeit unratified) EU legislation which applies to travel between two EU countries?? This was supposed to replace CIV rules...

 

[gordonthemoron]

It is possible to buy CIV domestic tickets without having purchased a Eurostar ticket, either via Raileasy or Eurostar Domestic Sales. Also, Ticket Inspectors do not ask to see the Eurostar Ticket unless you are trying to catch an alternate service due to having been delayed.

 

[northwichcat]

I thought the purchase of CIV tickets, not alongside a Eurostar ticket was because through tickets are only available from mainline stations not local stations as well.

 

[A60K]

I've noticed that other European railways generally don't issue tickets with "CIV" included in the destination field (as in 'London Intl(CIV)') or printed as part of the information specific to the ticket issued, but simply include the letters CIV as part of the pre-printed ticket blank (sometimes even if that blank may be used for domestic tickets as well as international).

On that basis the simple way for ATOC to comply with the COTIF requirement(?) that tickets issued as part of an 'international' journey might be simply to print the letters CIV on either the front or back of the ticket blank, and (if thought necessary) add a statement to the back of the ticket that where the ticket is used for an 'international' journey CIV regulations apply.

Would be a bit of a pain if they are abolishing them all though. Wonder if Lord Adonis could assist?

 

[yorkie]

Can anyone give examples of tickets that would / would not be affected, and what the implications are?

If it's just the withdrawal of tickets to "London International" and an acceptance that a combination of tickets (providing minimum interchange times were observed), constitutes one journey and therefore there is no problem getting later trains, then I am all for it, as it would be of benefit to passengers. But that's a big if!

 

[A60K]

Isn't there supposed to be seperate (albeit unratified) EU legislation which applies to travel between two EU countries?? This was supposed to replace CIV rules...

There is a derogation facility (Article 4, Section 1) in the current CIV rules for journeys between two stations either side of a frontier with no other station in between - such as this one granted in respect of Eurotunnel services between Cheriton and Coquelles.

 

[John @ home]

I will attend as a member of the public and update this thread afterwards.

I attended the London Travelwatch Fares & Ticketing Committee meeting yesterday. Unfortunately discussion of Withdrawal of CIV tickets by ATOC was deferred until the next meeting (27 April) because the information had not been provided to committee members in advance. A representative of ATOC stated "ATOC has not withdrawn CIV tickets".

I still don't know what the issue is regarding Withdrawal of CIV tickets by ATOC. I have not been able to find any more information on ATOC, OTIF, Passenger Focus or London Travelwatch sites.

There were more informative sessions on the roll-out of Pay-as-you-Go on National Rail, withdrawal of some non-Oyster tickets, gating at National Rail stations and debendification of London buses. I will update appropriate threads later today.

Edit: Click here for debendification debate

 

[A60K]

I spoke to a colleague last night, and he said that a number of flows to London International had been unavailable from certain stations within the zones for a couple of NFMs last year. This was due to a pricing error related to zonal fares in London - perhaps that's what was going to be discussed? It's been fixed now.