WMT Class 196s - production, introduction etc

[Whattraintoday]

Apologies if there is an existing thread, couldn't find it.

West Midlands Trains (WMT) have apparently ordered 26 Civity DMUs from CAF (80 vehicles in total) under the TOPS classification of 196xxx to replace their 170s - does anyone know how these differ from 195s?
Only difference I can find is that some are 4 car, the 195s are 2 or 3 car.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_196

 

[Domh245]

The biggest difference is probably that these 196s will have corridor connections (and look very much like a class 380 clone with a more vertical front)

 

[Whattraintoday]

Aren't those the Class 730 Aventras being manufactured by Bombardier? They're what seems to be pictured in the article linked from the wiki page, rather than a 196.
It's unsurprising that's the picture chosen for the article, given the huge disparity in the size of the orders (333 vs 80)

EDIT: Just looked at an article linked from the 730 wiki page:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...nd-caf-win-west-midlands-train-contracts.html
The greyer of the two designs does appear to be a 196 and does have a front corridor connection - along with possibly the ugliest front end of any modern train. Looks a lot like a 380/385, but even more awkward(!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aren't those the Class 730 Aventras being manufactured by Bombardier? They're what seems to be pictured in the article linked from the wiki page, rather than a 196.
It's unsurprising that's the picture chosen for the article, given the huge disparity in the size of the orders (333 vs 80)

The picture in the article is of existing Class 172s.

This article shows artist's impressions of both types:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...nd-caf-win-west-midlands-train-contracts.html

The gangwayed CAF units seem to more than passingly resemble a Derby heritage DMU.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The picture in the article is of existing Class 172s.

This article shows artist's impressions of both types:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...nd-caf-win-west-midlands-train-contracts.html

The gangwayed CAF units seem to more than passingly resemble a Derby heritage DMU.

Far from being ugly, I'd say that's the best attempt at a corridor cab that meets collision standards. The best looking since the 158s and 442s.

 

[D365]

My word - TOPS classifications that actually make sense?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

My word - TOPS classifications that actually make sense?

More supporting evidence in favour of a "like" button!

 

[TRAX]

Still not thinking of scrapping front-end gangways then ...
Also that 196 does look a lot like a 380 ! Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, they say...

 

[northwichcat]

What's the likelihood in the future someone says why do have 195s and 196s, couldn't we have had one large order of one train to one specification?

 

[D365]

What's the likelihood in the future someone says why do have 195s and 196s, couldn't we have had one large order of one train to one specification?

Would it have made a significant difference to the public wallet if x number of diesels have been ordered under one contract?

 

[Mikey C]

These must be the only post privatisation DMUs with an gangway, other than the 172s also operated in the West Midlands

 

[D365]

Question:

Given that the Class 196 appears to be almost a like-for-like replacement of WMT's Class 170 fleet, what are the operational benefits of a brand new diesel fleet. More longer units with gangways and better acceleration I would assume?

 

[AlexNL]

A better lease price, maybe?

 

[kje7812]

Question:

Given that the Class 196 appears to be almost a like-for-like replacement of WMT's Class 170 fleet, what are the operational benefits of a brand new diesel fleet. More longer units with gangways and better acceleration I would assume?

52 carriages for the 170 fleet vs. 80 for the CAF order, so a decent increase in capacity. The gangway ends will definitely help the New St-Herefords.

 

[Domh245]

52 carriages for the 170 fleet vs. 80 for the CAF order, so a decent increase in capacity. The gangway ends will definitely help the New St-Herefords.

Do remember that the new DMUs will also be replacing the 8x 153s, and 3x 150s, so it's only an increase of 13 vehicles (although then again the 230s also replace a few of those sprinters on the Marston Vale)

 

[kje7812]

Do remember that the new DMUs will also be replacing the 8x 153s, and 3x 150s, so it's only an increase of 13 vehicles (although then again the 230s also replace a few of those sprinters on the Marston Vale)

And there's 8 2-car 172s from LO due sometime this year.

 

[Domh245]

And there's 8 2-car 172s from LO due sometime this year.

My understanding is that they are mainly for new services though rather than replacing existing stock?

 

[Kite159]

My understanding is that they are mainly for new services though rather than replacing existing stock?

Replacing the 153s on Nuneaton - Coventry & Coventry - Leamington Spa services?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't forget the 3 x Class 230s to operate the Marston Vale.

 

[D365]

3x Class 230: Replaces Class 150/153 allocation on Marston Vale.
8x Class 172/0: Replaces Class 153s on Coventry-Nuneaton.

With the Class 170s being replaced by Class 196 (and partially by electrification?)

 

[northwichcat]

Would it have made a significant difference to the public wallet if x number of diesels have been ordered under one contract?

I was thinking long term. Notice how the 150/1s had their own operational areas when they were new and now they are just mixed up with 150/2s, whether at Northern or GWR.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Surely Porterbrook are aware that there are a number of 2 and 3-coach CrossCountry Turbostars packed on the Leicester, Stansted Airport and Nottingham routes?
Some / most of the displaced 170's should go to these routes - passengers (me included) don't like 2-car trains on these routes.
In fact, there'll be a good few operators who will want Class 170's in their fleet!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whatever the DMU, I don't think any DMU is going to get scrapped in the near future, Pacers aside.

 

[northwichcat]

Surely Porterbrook are aware that there are a number of 2 and 3-coach CrossCountry Turbostars packed on the Leicester, Stansted Airport and Nottingham routes?
Some / most of the displaced 170's should go to these routes - passengers (me included) don't like 2-car trains on these routes.
In fact, there'll be a good few operators who will want Class 170's in their fleet!

Last time Porterbrook reserved units for bidding of a particular franchise it didn't work out for them.

 

[Bornin1980s]

When was that?

 

[northwichcat]

When was that?

They reserved the 17 x 323s leased to Northern for the West Midlands franchise but the winning bidder for the West Midlands franchise not only rejected the option of taking on the Northern 323s but said they have no long plans for the 323s already leased for use in the West Midlands.

 

[LOL The Irony]

They reserved the 17 x 323s leased to Northern for the West Midlands franchise but the winning bidder for the West Midlands franchise not only rejected the option of taking on the Northern 323s but said they have no long plans for the 323s already leased for use in the West Midlands.

Which is why according to this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/rumours-of-all-323s-to-now-go-to-northern.161365/, they may yet see a reprieve.

What's the likelihood in the future someone says why do have 195s and 196s, couldn't we have had one large order of one train to one specification?

If only. Then the 2 car 195's would have made some sense.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

3x Class 230: Replaces Class 150/153 allocation on Marston Vale.
8x Class 172/0: Replaces Class 153s on Coventry-Nuneaton.

With the Class 170s being replaced by Class 196 (and partially by electrification?)

Two of the LO 172s are to cover Leamington-Coventry and Coventry-Nuneaton with the remainder to supplement Snow Hill services. 230s take over Marston Vale. Additional 319s on WCML south releases 350s for Chase Line and other enhancements north of Birmingham. 170s released from Chase Line to enhance Hereford and Shrewsbury services. This is what should happen December 2018 I think. What happens when the new stock comes is still a mystery but that is two-three years away!

 

[507021]

If only. Then the 2 car 195's would have made some sense.

I think they do make sense, because in the future, I think it is likely the 195/0s will be transferred to non electrified branch lines.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think they do make sense, because in the future, I think it is likely the 195/0s will be transferred to non electrified branch lines.

Pity they didn't specify gangways for while they're running round doubled up. Or was that an issue for DOO, perhaps? CAF certainly offer a gangwayed 195, WMT have specified it.