Wokingham to Waterloo using Iver to Zones 1 - 6 season: Permitted?

[J4ck100]

I will shortly be commuting from Wokingham-Waterloo

It is my understanding from reading another forum that the following is possible

If I were to purchase a season ticket from Iver to London travel card 1-6 , due to the routing guide it is supposedly valid via Reading to Waterloo and therefore via Wokingham as all services reading to Waterloo call at Wokingham. This would result in a fairly substantial saving and to my knowledge it is permitted.

Could anyone confirm?

Thanks
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The original post with the idea follows:

Cheaper travel using Travelcards

You can use a travelcard issued from a station outside London to travel via any permitted route to the boundary of the London travel zones (zone 6).

These stations are:

West Drayton
West Ruislip
Harrow-on-the-Hill
Hatch End
Elstree & Borehamwood
Hadley Wood
Crews Hill
Turkey Street
Enfield Lock
Harold Wood
Upminster
Rainham Essex
Slade Green
Barnehurst
Crayford
Knockholt
St Mary Cray
Coulsdon South
Ewell East
Ewell West
Surbiton
Feltham

So for example, a one-day travelcard from Ashford (Surrey), which is one stop outside of the London travelcard zones at Feltham, is valid to West Drayton using the route:

Ashford (Surrey) - Reading - West Drayton

This is shown by National Rail Enquiries:

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/AFS/WDT/tomorrow/1215/dep?via=Reading

and select the 'Travelcard' option.

Furthermore, since West Drayton is inside the London travelcard area, you can obviously travel onwards from West Drayton to Paddington using the travelcard element of the ticket.

In other words, a Ashford (Surrey) Super Off Peak Day Travelcard costing £12.60 is valid from Reading to London, which is a £21.70 travelcard ticket.

Unfortunately the train must stop at West Drayton on the day ticket for this to be valid.

If you bought a season ticket, however, it's not necessary to stop, and therefore rather than buying a Reading - London weekly travelcard at £120/wk, you can buy an Ashford (Surrey) - London at only £66/wk.

Other such journeys are possible, e.g., for travelling from Wokingham to Waterloo, you could buy an Iver - London one-day travelcard at £11.50

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/IVR/FEL/tomorrow/1215/dep?via=Wokingham rather than the £20.40 Wokingham - London One-day travelcard.

Since all trains from Wokingham to Waterloo stop at Feltham, this ticket is valid on all trains, and is a saving of almost 50%.

As noted below, in order to get the ticket to show up on booking sites, you may need to enter a return journey the same day. For all tickets except Advance tickets, the journey time shown on booking sites is purely informational - you do not need to take the specified trains, so enter any time, although be aware that there are off-peak and peak restrictions on most journeys, so this may affect pricing and validity.

Similar tricks can be utilised from many stations outside London.

Since this may prove controversial with train staff, you are advised to print out an itinerary from National Rail Enquiries showing that the Travelcard is valid via the route from the station you start from to a station within the zones (as per the list above), and that the train stops at this station (unless a season ticket).
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Anyone?

 

[ainsworth74]

Well I haven't had chance to look in to it detail but if you can get NRE to give you an itinerary showing it as a permitted route (i.e. only needing one ticket) and even better offer an itinerary on trains you're proposing to use then I believe the ticket should be honoured but I wouldn't be surprised if staff took issue with it so bring the NRE print out.

But as I say I haven't had chance to drill into details within the Routeing Guide.

 

[bb21]

Can of worms.

What station are you going to be travelling into regularly at the London end?

 

[yorkie]

If I were to purchase a season ticket from Iver to London travel card 1-6 , due to the routing guide it is supposedly valid via Reading to Waterloo and therefore via Wokingham as all services reading to Waterloo call at Wokingham. This would result in a fairly substantial saving and to my knowledge it is permitted.

Are you saying Iver to Feltham is permitted via Reading? If so (and I've not checked), then yes it's valid.

So for example, a one-day travelcard from Ashford (Surrey), which is one stop outside of the London travelcard zones at Feltham, is valid to West Drayton using the route:

Ashford (Surrey) - Reading - West Drayton

Is Ashford (Surrey) to West Drayton valid via Reading? If so (again I've not checked), yes it's currently valid.

Furthermore, since West Drayton is inside the London travelcard area, you can obviously travel onwards from West Drayton to Paddington using the travelcard element of the ticket.

In other words, a Ashford (Surrey) Super Off Peak Day Travelcard costing £12.60 is valid from Reading to London, which is a £21.70 travelcard ticket.

Unfortunately the train must stop at West Drayton on the day ticket for this to be valid.

I agree with this.

If you bought a season ticket, however, it's not necessary to stop

Why do you say that?

Other such journeys are possible, e.g., for travelling from Wokingham to Waterloo, you could buy an Iver - London one-day travelcard at £11.50

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/IVR/FEL/tomorrow/1215/dep?via=Wokingham rather than the £20.40 Wokingham - London One-day travelcard.

You like baiting pricing managers? Expect the routeing options to change so that "Any Permitted" is a higher price, and the current priced tickets are re-routed "Not via Reading"

 

[bb21]

Are you saying Iver to Feltham is permitted via Reading? If so (and I've not checked), then yes it's valid.

I have just consulted the Routeing Guide and Iver to Feltham is indeed permitted via Reading if the ticket is unrouted.

 

[J4ck100]

I have just consulted the Routeing Guide and Iver to Feltham is indeed permitted via Reading if the ticket is unrouted.

So long story short - An Iver to London Zones 1-6 Travelcard Season ticket IS valid Wokingham-Waterloo ? I'll remove this thread pronto if so
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Thing is on NRE the "via Reading" route comes up at more money nearly double. The cheap ones are "Via windsor" only which doesn't help.

What's the policy on if you bought a season ticket ? Are season tickets "any permitted" ?

 

[bb21]

So long story short - An Iver to London Zones 1-6 Travelcard Season ticket IS valid Wokingham-Waterloo ? I'll remove this thread pronto if so
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thing is on NRE the "via Reading" route comes up at more money nearly double. The cheap ones are "Via windsor" only which doesn't help.

What's the policy on if you bought a season ticket ? Are season tickets "any permitted" ?

As I said before, can of worms.

I think it is arguably permitted via Reading, hence Wokingham, however it is also debatable whether the train needs to stop at the boundary station but that is not an issue in your case as all trains stop at Feltham on that line.

It is difficult for me to say what your odds are encountering ticket checks on that route as it is not my usual hunting ground, but suffice to say that chances are if you presented a ticket from Iver, you will likely get hassle in most cases if checked onboard. Wokingham has no ticket barriers iirc so that is one factor that plays to your favour.

It is also a debatable point whether permitted routes can change in the duration of a season ticket. It has been argued that they cannot change once a ticket is bought under contract law but it has also been argued that permitted routes do not form part of the "package", and the changeover process exists should an intended route no longer be permitted. I am unable to say which is correct as I cannot recall any legal precedents.

I find it a bit absurd that a ticket from Iver is valid all the way round via Reading, but I think the way permitted routes are interpreted for Travelcards currently does allow this. A Travelcard from Iver would understandably be unrouted. It is an issue ATOC are aware of so I doubt there is much you can do to hide this from them.

What I normally recommend in these circumstances is that you purchase a weekly one to start with, and see how you get on in that week, before committing yourself to an annual one. Some people may find that the potential for constant and considerable hassle is simply not worth the money.

If you decide to go for it, then good luck.

 

[J4ck100]

As I said before, can of worms.

I think it is arguably permitted via Reading, hence Wokingham, however it is also debatable whether the train needs to stop at the boundary station but that is not an issue in your case as all trains stop at Feltham on that line.

It is difficult for me to say what your odds are encountering ticket checks on that route as it is not my usual hunting ground, but suffice to say that chances are if you presented a ticket from Iver, you will likely get hassle in most cases if checked onboard. Wokingham has no ticket barriers iirc so that is one factor that plays to your favour.

It is also a debatable point whether permitted routes can change in the duration of a season ticket. It has been argued that they cannot change once a ticket is bought under contract law but it has also been argued that permitted routes do not form part of the "package", and the changeover process exists should an intended route no longer be permitted. I am unable to say which is correct as I cannot recall any legal precedents.

I find it a bit absurd that a ticket from Iver is valid all the way round via Reading, but I think the way permitted routes are interpreted for Travelcards currently does allow this. A Travelcard from Iver would understandably be unrouted. It is an issue ATOC are aware of so I doubt there is much you can do to hide this from them.

What I normally recommend in these circumstances is that you purchase a weekly one to start with, and see how you get on in that week, before committing yourself to an annual one. Some people may find that the potential for constant and considerable hassle is simply not worth the money.

If you decide to go for it, then good luck.

Thanks, I will be going for it definitely.

 

[yorkie]

Get an Annual Season as I expect it will be re-routed "not via Reading" and complement a much higher fare routed "via Reading" or "Any Permitted" now that you've broadcast it directly to pricing managers!

 

[J4ck100]

Thread posted at 7:53PM I think the odds that a pricing manager has seen this already are minimal unless they are working serious overtime. I'd like to think pricing managers don't finish a day in the office, come home and browse rail forums UK.

If a season ticket is purchased, can they change the permitted routes midway and render it useless?

 

[Pumbaa]

Wokingham gets blocks fairly often - there's a revenue base just down the line at Bracknell. But on train checks won't be as common - half the Guards on that line aren't commercial (don't do tickets).

I echo bb21's advice - print out the relevant documentation and keep it in your bag.

 

[yorkie]

If a season ticket is purchased, can they change the permitted routes midway and render it useless?

I believe not, as you have agreed a contract. However you may wish to consult a solicitor who is proficient in contract law.

 

[J4ck100]

Can a mod please delete this thread to save me from any nightowl pricing managers

 

[yorkie]

Can a mod please delete this thread to save me from any nightowl pricing managers

Use the 'Contact Us' form or, for a quicker response, click the report button on the relevant post, if you have a request for moderators. It will then be considered.

 

[kieron]

So long story short - An Iver to London Zones 1-6 Travelcard Season ticket IS valid Wokingham-Waterloo ? I'll remove this thread pronto if so
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thing is on NRE the "via Reading" route comes up at more money nearly double. The cheap ones are "Via windsor" only which doesn't help.

That's only the cheapest Iver-Feltham off peak day single, where the cheap route involves a wander through Windsor, and the Reading and London ones are both dearer. Once you click the "with Travelcard" button, it goes to "any permitted".

 

[bb21]

Can a mod please delete this thread to save me from any nightowl pricing managers

There is no point as I explained above. This issue of Travelcard routeings has already been brought to ATOC's attention a few times (an example being 319321's case discussed in this thread). If they want to do something about it, they will have already started the process.

That's only the cheapest Iver-Feltham off peak day single, where the cheap route involves a wander through Windsor, and the Reading and London ones are both dearer. Once you click the "with Travelcard" button, it goes to "any permitted".

Yes, agreed.

The cheaper single/return fares between Iver and Feltham are routed Via Windsor so you cannot travel via Reading on those, but the Travelcard is unrouted.

 

[yorkie]

I don't think ATOC are likely to try to try to get the rules changed, as the rules are entirely sensible.

However much more likely the pricing managers will try to get the tickets routed. Some pricing managers are very proactive (e.g. East Coast's) while some are reactive (e.g. EMT's), and some just don't seem to bother.

It's a bit more tricky when TOC who want to get it changed do not set the fare. They have to be careful to follow the correct procedures; FGW can't just pick up the 'phone to SWT (and vice-versa) demanding the other changes the routeing.

As for "I'd like to think pricing managers don't finish a day in the office, come home and browse rail forums UK. " why not? Some people really enjoy their jobs (and if you don't, perhaps you're in the wrong job? ) and may be very conscientious. A significant number of people work from home these days too.

Besides, even if the pricing manager isn't reading this thread in the evening, a lot of rail staff read this forum (and some will be at work now; some lines never stop!) and it's very easy for them to copy & paste and compose an email which the relevant person can read the next day.

 

[J4ck100]

Okie dokey so it's full steam ahead in any case.

 

[yorkie]

Indeed. Are you experienced in conflict avoidance techniques?

 

[J4ck100]

If you mean hiding in the toilet when the conductor comes then yes

Would this ticket be valid Reading/Twyford to Paddington as well out of interest?

 

[TEW]

Wokingham gets blocks fairly often - there's a revenue base just down the line at Bracknell. But on train checks won't be as common - half the Guards on that line aren't commercial (don't do tickets).

I echo bb21's advice - print out the relevant documentation and keep it in your bag.

On train checks are far more common now the line is predominantly worked by 450s rather than 458s though.

 

[bb21]

If you mean hiding in the toilet when the conductor comes then yes

Would this ticket be valid Reading/Twyford to Paddington as well out of interest?

Yes, but imo it is only valid on trains that stop at Iver.