Worries over changes to Scarborough's train services

[crispy1978]

http://www.thescarboroughnews.co.uk/news/local/worries-over-changes-to-rail-services-1-6704518

Concerns are being raised over potential changes to Scarborough’s train services which could have a major impact on commuters and visitors.

Under proposals from the Government the town could lose its direct services to Manchester Airport and West Yorkshire, with people being forced to change at York to head on to other destinations.

The proposals are now out to consultation, with it being suggested that Scarborough could move from a TransPennine service to a Northern Rail franchise.

It also adds that there are no plans to electrify the Scarborough to York stretch of line. Meaning diesel trains will be required for journeys.

Councillor Derek Bastiman has said that Scarborough Council and North Yorkshire County Council will both be sending comments to the Secretary of State for Transport, Patrick McLoughlin regarding the TransPennine line.

He said both councils were worried about moves which could result in passengers have to change trains at York en route to West Yorkshire and the Pennines.

Cllr Bastiman added: “The train links are good though could benefit from an additional carriage being included because of the number of passengers now travelling to and from the coast. Good roads and rail services are crucial to aiding the Borough Council’s vision to regenerate the Yorkshire Coast by 2020.”

on Monday the borough council’s Labour leader, cllr Colin Challen, will also present a motion to the Council calling on it to oppose the changes.

He said: “We call upon the Department for Transport to invest in better rail services to Scarborough and its neighbouring resorts.”

What is being proposed:

• A Scarborough to York diesel service where people would change to go to Manchester or London

• A Scarborough to Leeds diesel service

• A Scaborough to Blackpool North service via Bradford and Halifax. This would require the move to a Northern Rail service

• A through Scarborough route via the North TransPennine route which would require a diesel service under the wires to Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Airport or Liverpool.

• To view the document and to respond visit https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/future-of-northern-and-transpennine-express-rail-franchises

 

[gordonthemoron]

howabout make York-Scabs half hourly and change at York?

 

[northwichcat]

I've read somewhere else the local councilors aren't happy with a Northern Scarborough-Blackpool service as they feel it would mean rolling stock is downgraded. They want modern interiors with First Class and a trolley service for at least part of the journey, which Northern don't provide on York-Blackpool services but their preferred option is to retain a Liverpool service operated by TPE.
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howabout make York-Scabs half hourly and change at York?

Some people don't like changing though. When I was in Scarborough recently an elderly Irish man was asking if there were any direct services to Manchester Airport saying he a late afternoon flight the following day. The response was there's just one, first thing in the morning, to which the man replied he'll take the direct train and kill some time at the Airport rather than go later and change.

 

[Greenback]

The number of people who prefer a direct train is probably quite high. The number of people who would refuse to change is probably lower. Millions of people manage to change trains every day, including significant numbers who are unfamiliar with the railway system here.

Ultimately it simply isn't possible to provide direct trains from everywhere to everywhere. The best that we can aspire to is satisfying the largest flows as much as is practicable within the constraints of the infrastructure.

 

[gordonthemoron]

there are currently no direct trains between Scarborough and Newcastle/Brum/London, how do people manage

 

[neilmc]

I can't make sense of this - surely under the proposals Scarborough would GAIN a through service to Manchester and its Airport but LOSE the through service to Liverpool. In any case the majority of traffic is for York and Leeds and this would still be retained, with a new through option on the Calder Valley to Bradford, Halifax and Blackpool.

 

[northwichcat]

I can't make sense of this - surely under the proposals Scarborough would GAIN a through service to Manchester and its Airport but LOSE the through service to Liverpool. In any case the majority of traffic is for York and Leeds and this would still be retained, with a new through option on the Calder Valley to Bradford, Halifax and Blackpool.

No. Scarborough currently has an hourly service to Liverpool via Manchester. The preferred idea is for York to have a half-hourly electric service to Manchester Airport and a half-hourly electric service to Liverpool but with Scarborough not being electrified it would mean they would likely either get a Scarborough-York-Bradford-Burnley-Preston-Blackpool service or a Scarborough-York shuttle instead of the current Manchester and Liverpool service. The option for retaining a diesel service to Manchester remains in the consultation but franchise bidders will have to prove there's a very strong case for such a service to even retain even a few direct trains per day.

 

[Aictos]

As much as a direct service to Leeds/Liverpool/Manchester would be useful, surely running half hourly DMU shuttles between Scarborough and York connecting with regular services to Liverpool/Leeds/Newcastle/London etc would be a far better use of resources especially if the connections are done right?

I mean isn't that what they did for Royston to Cambridge when they were electrifying, run a Class 312 between Kings Cross and Royston then run a DMU shuttle to Cambridge so what's the issue?

I mean if it's a increase from 1tph to 2tph BUT having to change at York I think that's much better then running a DMU over a route which will be wired up ie York to Liverpool.

 

[Greenback]

It doesn't sound very different to the discussions about west Wales services once electrification to Swansea is complete.

It certainly won't be viable to run diesel services over long sections of electrified track to Manchester if it isn't viable to run diesel services under the wires between Swansea and Cardiff.
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I mean if it's a increase from 1tph to 2tph BUT having to change at York I think that's much better then running a DMU over a route which will be wired up ie York to Liverpool.

It's certainly better for those who only want to travel between Scarborough and York.

 

[Aictos]

It doesn't sound very different to the discussions about west Wales services once electrification to Swansea is complete.

It certainly won't be viable to run diesel services over long sections of electrified track to Manchester if it isn't viable to run diesel services under the wires between Swansea and Cardiff.
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It's certainly better for those who only want to travel between Scarborough and York.

Yes but if there's the promise of 4tph to Liverpool/Manchester from York connecting there with 2tph to Scarborough i can't see a issue as that's far better then 1tph direct to Liverpool.

 

[David Barrett]

In much the same boat as Grimsby/Cleethorpes except that unlike Scarborough, with a range of replacement options tabled, the DfT have only suggested that these two places could be served by an extension of the Scunthorpe/Sheffield Stoppers.

This disparity aside the ultimate electrification of the core and the consequent truncation of established through services will, no doubt lead to a falling off in demand from periphery. There are already a number of expense account regulars who use my own local station starting to talk in terms of more use of the M62.

It is true, perhaps more a statement of the obvious, that everywhere can't have a through service to everywhere else but such through services that have been established and cultivated over the last 20-40 years or so are appreciated and used well because of them being just that, through services and it seems that some users will find alternative means of communication.

At the other end of the market I do envisage the likes of Stagecoach taking advantage of longer rail journey times/ more changes of train as they entice passengers onto cheap coach services filled with punters for Meadowhall grumbling about the bloody railway being its own worst enemy.

 

[Greenback]

Yes but if there's the promise of 4tph to Liverpool/Manchester from York connecting there with 2tph to Scarborough i can't see a issue as that's far better then 1tph direct to Liverpool.

Yes I agree. I feel that 2 tph to York is an improvement, but especially for those in Malton who want to go to York or Scarborough!

 

[gordonthemoron]

M62 is a dreadful road

 

[yorksrob]

I must admit, on the odd occasions when I've used the branch, I've been stuck by how busy the trains on it can be. Whatever solution they come up with, they'll have to keep up with capacity.

On the other hand, if they get the Blackpool North service, they could end up back with 3 carriage 158's again like the old days.

 

[northwichcat]

There are no plans for Scarborough to have a half-hourly service to York. While the document says bidders can propose service enhancements it seems to suggest that (at least some of) the rolling stock required to do that will have to be freed up by cutting services at lightly used stations.

 

[yorksrob]

Oh yes, the thousands of trains that are supposedly going to be freed up by running through stations rather than not stopping at them ! (scepticism emoticon please)

I suppose at least a 3 carriage 158 probably has a higher capacity than a 185.

 

[Moonshot]

There are no plans for Scarborough to have a half-hourly service to York. While the document says bidders can propose service enhancements it seems to suggest that (at least some of) the rolling stock required to do that will have to be freed up by cutting services at lightly used stations.

A point which I have made a few times now......

 

[Greenback]

This disparity aside the ultimate electrification of the core and the consequent truncation of established through services will, no doubt lead to a falling off in demand from periphery. There are already a number of expense account regulars who use my own local station starting to talk in terms of more use of the M62.

There are always winners and losers when any changes are made. From a purely business viewpoint, I would expect that any loss in business would be more than balanced by an increase in use from the electrification. Especially if some of those who say they will use their cars return to rail after sampling the experience.

It is true, perhaps more a statement of the obvious, that everywhere can't have a through service to everywhere else but such through services that have been established and cultivated over the last 20-40 years or so are appreciated and used well because of them being just that, through services and it seems that some users will find alternative means of communication.

This argument is used in west Wales as well, but the fact is that services such as Manchester to Milford Haven and Scarborough to Liverpool were not introduced because of high demand form either end for through travel, but because such working was the most productive use of stock and crew. In fact, the amount of through passengers between Milford and Manchester is negligible, and, although slightly higher, the through traffic between stations west of Swansea and east of Cardiff is not much more significant in the grand scheme of things. I imagine it will be much the same between east of York and west of Leeds, at least on the vast majority of services.

Clearly, the economics change when electrification of some of the route is brought in, which means that it is no longer the most economical way of doing things to have these through services running any more.

If Stagecoach or anyone else can pick up marginal traffic from those who don't want to change trains, and make a profit out of it, then that's good. I'll say it again, even though it might be stating the obvious, the railway can't provide the service that every single individual wants all the time. It has to the best it can to satisfy the greatest demand, and I don't think that a through diesel train under the wires to Liverpool once an hour is the best way to do that.
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There are no plans for Scarborough to have a half-hourly service to York. While the document says bidders can propose service enhancements it seems to suggest that (at least some of) the rolling stock required to do that will have to be freed up by cutting services at lightly used stations.

It seems to me that it would be better to argue for a half hourly service than for unrealistic demands that services continue as they are once the wires are up.

 

[northwichcat]

Oh yes, the thousands of trains that are supposedly going to be freed up by running through stations rather than not stopping at them ! (scepticism emoticon please)

I think they've looked at lines like the Buxton line to come to that conclusion. Buxton-Manchester hourly standard pattern services require 3 diagrams. Cutting back to 2 diagrams wouldn't work - it would need a 1 minute turnaround at both ends. However, if you want a half-hourly semi-fast service you could possibly do it with 4 diagrams.

 

[yorksrob]

I think they've looked at lines like the Buxton line to come to that conclusion. Buxton-Manchester hourly standard pattern services require 3 diagrams. Cutting back to 2 diagrams wouldn't work - it would need a 1 minute turnaround at both ends. However, if you want a half-hourly semi-fast service you could possibly do it with 4 diagrams.

Wouldn't that need an extra unit, which would leave us back at square one ?

 

[northwichcat]

Wouldn't that need an extra unit, which would leave us back at square one ?

1 extra unit not 2 though.

 

[ainsworth74]

I must admit, on the odd occasions when I've used the branch, I've been stuck by how busy the trains on it can be. Whatever solution they come up with, they'll have to keep up with capacity.

And in my experience there is a significant (as in nearly everybody) turnover at York. So a shuttle shouldn't affect demand badly as a lot of it is to/from York anyway!

 

[yorksrob]

1 extra unit not 2 though.

Ah I see. I would have thought it must be a pretty rare set of circumstances in terms of length of route, number of diagrams and spacing of stations for such an out come from fewer stops to be possible though.

 

[northwichcat]

And in my experience there is a significant (as in nearly everybody) turnover at York. So a shuttle shouldn't affect demand badly as a lot of it is to/from York anyway!

It wasn't nearly everyone when I did that journey but a significant number didn't travel beyond York. I would however say it was a small minority who boarded at Scarborough who were still on beyond Leeds.

 

[ToastLaser]

It wasn't nearly everyone when I did that journey but a significant number didn't travel beyond York. I would however say it was a small minority who boarded at Scarborough who were still on beyond Leeds.

Used to be a guard on that route and most people changed at York coming out of Scarborough, if it does get separated would be nice if they could get a station back in on the east side of york round strensal area to ease traffic congestion...highly unlikely though.

 

[gordonthemoron]

haven't they been talking about a strensal station since the 1980s?

 

[Greenback]

It wasn't nearly everyone when I did that journey but a significant number didn't travel beyond York. I would however say it was a small minority who boarded at Scarborough who were still on beyond Leeds.

I agree based on my admittedly limited experiences of the Scarborough line. On one trip, most of the passengers did leave at York, on another hardly anyone did, though a lot got off with us in Leeds, and there was insufficient room for all of those wanting to board, and on yet another visit I'd say about 50% alighted at York and 50% again at Leeds.

I suppose it varies according to the time of day, time of year and day of the week.

 

[northwichcat]

I suppose at least a 3 carriage 158 probably has a higher capacity than a 185.

Just remembered I saw quite a few bikes being loaded on and off on the York-Scarborough leg when I travelled. I imagine the 185s are more popular with cyclists than the 158s.

 

[Starmill]

haven't they been talking about a strensal station since the 1980s?

I think Haxby is being progressed with.

 

[David Barrett]

Oh yes, the thousands of trains that are supposedly going to be freed up by running through stations rather than not stopping at them ! (scepticism emoticon please)

I suppose at least a 3 carriage 158 probably has a higher capacity than a 185.

Indeed, but I think that someone has decided that you will not need a 3 car 158. I do get the impression that the forthcoming franchise period is very much a holding operation designed to squeeze the last out of the current DMU fleet and consolidation of what is, and for many years has been, regarded as the tolerable core, beyond which much more rolling stock will have rubber tyres. Request for scepticism emoticon seconded.