XC desperately needs more rolling stock

[irish_rail]

Moderator note: Split from

Class 221 for Grand Central

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #27 originally in this thread. 221143 is getting an exam and other maintenance work performed. 10 units in total are set to transfer to GC after refresh and rebranding. That is the ROSCO's own information.

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The new timetable has really shown up XC for its need to get more stock. The 1127 Plymouth to Edinburgh is formed a 4 car and is ridiculously overcrowded days after day. Surely this service at very least should justify a 5 car set, but these AWC sets that will soon be spare are desperately needed on XC.

 

[YorksLad12]

I note, with great irony, that my 0811 from Leeds to Sheffield has been at least 8 cars so far this week... the week I chose to work from home because of the rail strikes. Last week they were 4-cars (5 would have helped but four is daft). It's not necessarily the case that XC needs more or longer trains; that York-Leeds-Sheffield run could be done by Northern, if they had the paths, stock and drivers. We need to decide what XC is for first - long distance (as they think, see Modern Railways May 2023) or commuter (as many of us passengers see it).

 

[Energy]

I note, with great irony, that my 0811 from Leeds to Sheffield has been at least 8 cars so far this week...

XC seem to manage 8/9 cars on some routes (e.g Manchester to Bournemouth). I suspect Plymouth suffers more than others due to it slowly loosing its XC HSTs.

Sticking the 14 802s designated for short HST replacement on the Plymouth routes would be nice but whatever replaces the short HSTs instead would need maintaining somewhere other than Laira.

 

[JonathanH]

XC seem to manage 8/9 cars on some routes (e.g Manchester to Bournemouth).

Notwithstanding the closure of the route between Didcot and Oxford, XC will be back to using single units on Manchester to Bournemouth when it reopens, as they have started running Manchester to Bristol trains again since the recent timetable change.

I suspect Plymouth suffers more than others due to it slowly loosing its XC HSTs.

The routes suffer broadly equally. XC isn't going back to Exeter or Southampton, which frees up the Voyagers to replace the HSTs.

 

[Energy]

The routes suffer broadly equally. XC isn't going back to Exeter or Southampton, which frees up the Voyagers to replace the HSTs.

Arguably getting rid of the Southampton services hasn't reduced the need, its just shifted passengers on to the Bournemouth service with a change at Birmingham.

Notwithstanding the closure of the route between Didcot and Oxford, XC will be back to using single units on Manchester to Bournemouth when it reopens, as they have started running Manchester to Bristol trains again since the recent timetable change.

Shame, the 8/9 cars are regularly mostly full.

 

[Mark J]

XC desperately need new rolling stock.

At 11:45 on Bank Holiday Monday, a more than full and standing FOUR carriage train (of which one carriage was 1st) departed Reading for Manchester Piccadilly with many returning Festival goers.

It is like this often on XC, not just Bank Holidays.

Who on earth thinks it is a great idea to run a four carriage train all the way from Bournemouth to Manchester Picadilly.

We had a spell of 8/10 carriages when units were doubled up, however it seems to have reverted back again.

 

[sufian123]

M

XC desperately need new rolling stock.

At 11:45 on Bank Holiday Monday, a more than full and standing FOUR carriage train (of which one carriage was 1st) departed Reading for Manchester Piccadilly with many returning Festival goers.

It is like this often on XC, not just Bank Holidays.

Who on earth thinks it is a great idea to run a four carriage train all the way from Bournemouth to Manchester Picadilly.

We had a spell of 8/10 carriages when units were doubled up, however it seems to have reverted back again.

Manchester to Bristol trains are back. This was bound to happen. Now HSTs are retiring on other routes, it’s going to get worse.

 

[The exile]

XC desperately need new rolling Who on earth thinks it is a great idea to run a four carriage train all the way from Bournemouth to Manchester Picadilly.

A transport minister with a ministerial car and driver combined with short-sighted, penny-pinching “experts” in Whitehall who can’t see beyond the end of their noses because they’re stuck up somewhere the sun don’t shine in pursuit of some gong or another.

 

[43055]

XC desperately need new rolling stock.

At 11:45 on Bank Holiday Monday, a more than full and standing FOUR carriage train (of which one carriage was 1st) departed Reading for Manchester Piccadilly with many returning Festival goers.

It is like this often on XC, not just Bank Holidays.

Who on earth thinks it is a great idea to run a four carriage train all the way from Bournemouth to Manchester Picadilly.

We had a spell of 8/10 carriages when units were doubled up, however it seems to have reverted back again.

The DafT is the one who thinks it is a god idea.

Single sets was going to happen anyway when the Newcastle - Reading and Manchester - Bristol was introduced again which the latter also interworks with the Bournemouth service.

 

[RailWonderer]

Th

I note, with great irony, that my 0811 from Leeds to Sheffield has been at least 8 cars so far this week... the week I chose to work from home because of the rail strikes. Last week they were 4-cars (5 would have helped but four is daft). It's not necessarily the case that XC needs more or longer trains; that York-Leeds-Sheffield run could be done by Northern, if they had the paths, stock and drivers. We need to decide what XC is for first - long distance (as they think, see Modern Railways May 2023) or commuter (as many of us passengers see it).

The reality is never clear cut, many passengers commute on intercity services as they are faster than locals, XC can’t stop calling at Sheffield, Leeds and York just to discourage some commuters overcrowding their services.

Having certain services at set down/pick up only in more locations could help for the time being (but even cost free solutions never seem to be on the table for XC).

 

[InTheEastMids]

We need to decide what XC is for first - long distance (as they think, see Modern Railways May 2023) or commuter (as many of us passengers see it).

The reality is never clear cut, many passengers commute on intercity services as they are faster than locals, XC can’t stop calling at Sheffield, Leeds and York just to discourage some commuters overcrowding their services.

I think XC needs to decide that it is for passengers who have varied reasons for travelling, and their aspiration is not helped by the blurring of the lines between commuting and business travel as commutes have become longer and less frequent.

XC's vision of itself as primarily a long-distance operator is basically trying to provide a narrative of why it is in difficulty. It's basically blaming it on the wrong type of passengers!

Since XC can, does and should provide longer-distance commuting service into the major regional centres as in important segment of its business, it's worth remembering that they have an utterly inappropriate fleet that isn't up to the job (my guess is it's the highest operating cost per seat km fleet in the country), as I think we on here pretty much all agree.

 

[Snow1964]

The reality is never clear cut, many passengers commute on intercity services as they are faster than locals, XC can’t stop calling at Sheffield, Leeds and York just to discourage some commuters overcrowding their services.

But XC don't act like an intercity operator with 9, 10, 11 car trains

They often supply a train with less standard class seats than some local trains, then moan that they are overcrowded.

XC would be much better if it acted like a long distance operator, running fast between major cities north and south, east and west, preferably not trying to link nearby cities already where it doesn't have the resources to carry everyone

 

[JonathanH]

But XC don't act like an intercity operator with 9, 10, 11 car trains

I'm not sure that follows. Even in the 1990s the trains only had 7 coaches when London trains had 8 or 9. It is fairer to say that XC don't have the capacity that trains running to London have and that they can't cope on days with high levels of demand, but that is what they were saddled with when the numbers didn't stack up for the desired changes in the original Virgin XC franchise.

It would be interesting to know what the other bidders in 2008 could have offered. Arriva somehow won the bid.

XC would be much better if it acted like a long distance operator, running fast between major cities north and south, east and west, preferably not trying to link nearby cities already where it doesn't have the resources to carry everyone

Which other operator would then run to 'link nearby cities'? Isn't one problem that, in order to justify more capacity, it will need to continue to carry the short distance passengers?

I think it has been said that the financial modelling of Operation Princess was all about picking up custom off other operators by running a more expensive service. Not carrying local passengers probably doesn't help with XC's revenue.

 

[MML]

I suspect XC tickets for the non-stop service between York and Leeds are already more expensive than a Northern ticket for their local stopping service, but pricing alone is not the solution to overcrowding.
Class 221 from AWC and Class 222 from EMR are the only solution. Ideally units should be reformed with 5-car reduced to 4-car and the surplus coaches used to form some 8 or 9-car units. The 1 x 8-car formation requiring fewer onboard staff than 2 x 4-car unit formation and thereby improving productivity on routes where longer formations are required as standard.
4-car units could replace 3-car Class 170 units which in turn could be cascaded to EMR.
EMR could then operate their Liverpool to Norwich service using 2 x 3-car units instead of 2 x 2-car units, alleviating overcrowding on those services.

 

[JonathanH]

Ideally units should be reformed with 5-car reduced to 4-car and the surplus coaches used to form some 8 or 9-car units. The 1 x 8-car formation requiring fewer onboard staff than 2 x 4-car unit formation and thereby improving productivity on routes where longer formations are required as standard.

Its a shame someone built the primary train depot such that it can only handle five coach units, and that CrossCountry use short platforms in various places.

 

[Mark J]

I suspect XC tickets for the non-stop service between York and Leeds are already more expensive than a Northern ticket for their local stopping service, but pricing alone is not the solution to overcrowding.
Class 221 from AWC and Class 222 from EMR are the only solution. Ideally units should be reformed with 5-car reduced to 4-car and the surplus coaches used to form some 8 or 9-car units. The 1 x 8-car formation requiring fewer onboard staff than 2 x 4-car unit formation and thereby improving productivity on routes where longer formations are required as standard.
4-car units could replace 3-car Class 170 units which in turn could be cascaded to EMR.
EMR could then operate their Liverpool to Norwich service using 2 x 3-car units instead of 2 x 2-car units, alleviating overcrowding on those services.

XC really needs a new fleet of trains.

Ideally of at least six to eight carriages in length.

The existing XC fleet of Class 220/221 are now over 20 years old and showing their age.

Increasingly tatty and run down inside, I don't think any refurbishment of them has occurred since Virgin obtained them for their franchise.

They clearly do not have enough capacity to cope at certain times. Whilst I suspect week day services may be quieter, the same cannot be said on Friday Afternoon/evening, Saturday and Sunday. XC also carry a lot of football traffic, especially with the various clubs in towns and cities they stop at.

Ideally they need bi/tri mode trains that can run on overhead electrics/third rail, diesel and battery.

I know various parts of their route: Bournemouth to Basingstoke is 3rd Rail. Basingstoke to Reading non electrified, Reading to Didcot overhead electrics, and Didcot to Coventry also non electrified.

I've never been North of Coventry yet, so don't know what the route is like northwards.

 

[Energy]

It would be interesting to know what the other bidders in 2008 could have offered. Arriva somehow won the bid.

Arriva's bid did have more seats by removing the shop and introducing the HSTs but it was more reducing subsidy.

 

[Trainbike46]

I suspect XC tickets for the non-stop service between York and Leeds are already more expensive than a Northern ticket for their local stopping service, but pricing alone is not the solution to overcrowding.
Class 221 from AWC and Class 222 from EMR are the only solution. Ideally units should be reformed with 5-car reduced to 4-car and the surplus coaches used to form some 8 or 9-car units. The 1 x 8-car formation requiring fewer onboard staff than 2 x 4-car unit formation and thereby improving productivity on routes where longer formations are required as standard.
4-car units could replace 3-car Class 170 units which in turn could be cascaded to EMR.
EMR could then operate their Liverpool to Norwich service using 2 x 3-car units instead of 2 x 2-car units, alleviating overcrowding on those services.

XC would definitely benefit from getting the 221s and 222s as they are freed up, however the rest of your suggestions are somewhat more confusing:

- Firstly, why shorten trains to 4-cars?
- Secondly, the stansted airport route requires units that can use sprinter differentials, such as the current 170s, 755s or obviously sprinters, so you would have to retain 170s for that

 

[swt_passenger]

Who on earth thinks it is a great idea to run a four carriage train all the way from Bournemouth to Manchester Picadilly.

We had a spell of 8/10 carriages when units were doubled up, however it seems to have reverted back again.

Most of the doubling up on Bournemouth services over the last year or two occurred when trains were only running 2 hourly. In normal pre-2000 timetable there was only ever a very few doubled sets, one each way maybe, which didn’t run every weekday either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

XC would definitely benefit from getting the 221s and 222s as they are freed up, however the rest of your suggestions are somewhat more confusing:

- Firstly, why shorten trains to 4-cars?
- Secondly, the stansted airport route requires units that can use sprinter differentials, such as the current 170s, 755s or obviously sprinters, so you would have to retain 170s for that

If XC were to get all the 221s and 222s they would probably logically bin off a load of end cars and reform to say 6/7 and 9 car formations. 4 is useless, 5 is barely useful.

 

[12LDA28C]

If XC were to get all the 221s and 222s they would probably logically bin off a load of end cars and reform to say 6/7 and 9 car formations. 4 is useless, 5 is barely useful.

Leaving the ROSCO with a load of driving vehicles which are no use to anyone on their own?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Leaving the ROSCO with a load of driving vehicles which are no use to anyone on their own?

If there's no other takers then it's no different from scrap. Indeed, that's what you'd do with them.

If there are other takers then I'd agree it would be wasteful.

 

[RobShipway]

Leaving the ROSCO with a load of driving vehicles which are no use to anyone on their own?

Could be used for parts as has been done by depots for other trains including class 43 power cars for HST trains.

 

[12LDA28C]

Could be used for parts as has been done by depots for other trains including class 43 power cars for HST trains.

My point was more that the ROSCO would be unlikely to agree to have their assets reformed into non-original spec which left them with a load of driving vehicles they couldn't lease to another operator.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My point was more that the ROSCO would be unlikely to agree to have their assets reformed into non-original spec which left them with a load of driving vehicles they couldn't lease to another operator.

Rather depends if another operator is interested.

 

[AJDesiro]

XC really needs a new fleet of trains.

Ideally of at least six to eight carriages in length.

The existing XC fleet of Class 220/221 are now over 20 years old and showing their age.

Increasingly tatty and run down inside, I don't think any refurbishment of them has occurred since Virgin obtained them for their franchise.

AFAIK, the voyagers did get new seat covers and the shop removed when XC took over the franchise, it just happened to be that the seat covers in standard were replaced like for like.

 

[Energy]

If there's no other takers then it's no different from scrap. Indeed, that's what you'd do with them.

If there are other takers then I'd agree it would be wasteful.

Scotrail are supposedly interested in the 222s.

I doubt either ROSCO would be interested mixing the 222 and 220/221 vehicles.

 

[JonathanH]

This thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/main-revenue-flows-on-the-wcml.253843/ includes an incredible statistic that London to Manchester was worth £204m a year pre-Covid, while Birmingham to Manchester was only worth £11m a year. The latter must be one of most lucrative flows on CrossCountry.

It kind of explains why CrossCountry is the poor relation of the Intercity operators serving London.

Even if some allowance is made for the apparent suppression of demand caused by the current rolling stock, it still indicates a big gap in the revenue on offer.

I don't think it indicates that nothing should be done about CrossCountry but it does indicate the challenge in finding funding.

 

[WAB]

Most of the doubling up on Bournemouth services over the last year or two occurred when trains were only running 2 hourly. In normal pre-2000 timetable there was only ever a very few doubled sets, one each way maybe, which didn’t run every weekday either.

Just goes to show how long the neglect of XC has gone on for.

 

[Chester1]

One way of adding more capacity would be splitting the Manchester services at Birmingham and using 350/2s when LNR have finished with them. They would need to have new seats to be suitable but approximately 16 units rostered each day would enable a half hourly Birmingham to Manchester service with 8 coach sets. The obvious long term solution would be a fleet of bi modes but I can't see DfT paying for that in the short or medium term.