The State Of Rail Travel In Lincolnshire

[Kneedown]

You learn something new every day, the amount of times I have sat infront of that smelly sewage work watching ECML trains go ahead

Aaaaaaah, the aromatic joys of Crankley Point, much enhanced when the population of Newark has a Biriani the night before!

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Ive just got a very intresting e-mail from Northern Rail why they can not run an early Sunday service to/from Sheffield Midland to Lincoln

"Dear Sir

Further to the email I sent.

The manager responsible for timetabling has sent me additional information which clarrifies the matter in more detail. I hope you find it helpfull. He said the following.

Northern is too well aware of the limited Sunday service offered on the Worksop / Lincoln route and in conjunction with South Yorkshire PTE (who specify the service between Sheffield and Worksop) have investigated the introduce of an earlier service. However, the route is a key freight route, especially for the servicing of the Power Stations at Cottam and West Burton and as such sees 24 hour traffic through the week. Network Rail requires an adequate gap in the operation of trains to carry out routine and renewal maintenance and this is currently between c. 23.00 Sat to 13.00 Sun each week. It would not be appropriate for this window to be moved to elsewhere in the timetable, as that would propose to withdraw services that already exist rather than provide ones that are not currently there. As Network Rail reviews methodology for maintenance, Northern Rail will continue to push for improved access but it may be a while yet"

 

[YorkshireBear]

Ive just got a very intresting e-mail from Northern Rail why they can not run an early Sunday service to/from Sheffield Midland to Lincoln

"Dear Sir

Further to the email I sent.

The manager responsible for timetabling has sent me additional information which clarrifies the matter in more detail. I hope you find it helpfull. He said the following.

Northern is too well aware of the limited Sunday service offered on the Worksop / Lincoln route and in conjunction with South Yorkshire PTE (who specify the service between Sheffield and Worksop) have investigated the introduce of an earlier service. However, the route is a key freight route, especially for the servicing of the Power Stations at Cottam and West Burton and as such sees 24 hour traffic through the week. Network Rail requires an adequate gap in the operation of trains to carry out routine and renewal maintenance and this is currently between c. 23.00 Sat to 13.00 Sun each week. It would not be appropriate for this window to be moved to elsewhere in the timetable, as that would propose to withdraw services that already exist rather than provide ones that are not currently there. As Network Rail reviews methodology for maintenance, Northern Rail will continue to push for improved access but it may be a while yet"

Very interesting... nice to see NR and SYTPE pushing though.....

 

[dfishw]

hi yeh i know lincolnshire has bad service a few improvments could be made such as:
1. either reintroduce lincoln-nottingham-birmnigham/cardiff services (XC) or if not extend the nott-matlock service to allow regular connections at derby.
2. Merge the newark Ngate-Cleethorpes/Grimsby service with lincoln-nottingham-leicster to allow direct services to grimsby/cleethorpes. at present only one train on sunday afternoon (in summer) travels from nottingham to cleethorpes! Also sunday services between nottingham and lincoln should start earlier.
3. Direct services lincoln to london either hourly or every two hours..i thought this was going ahead!
4. The service donc-lincoln-peterbourough needs making more regular. Also extend it to leeds if possible
5. Two services per hour nott to lincoln one stopping one fast. (this is wanted by EMDA)
6. Two services nott-skegness
7. Direct services between lincoln and skegness perhaps extending sheffield-lincoln service to skegness.
8. Direct services skegness to leicester (via peterborough) every hour.
9. Direct services skegness to london (maybe one a day return, more at summer weekends)

 

[sheff'd victoria]

hi yeh i know lincolnshire has bad service a few improvments could be made such as:
1. either reintroduce lincoln-nottingham-birmnigham/cardiff services (XC) or if not extend the nott-matlock service to allow regular connections at derby.
2. Merge the newark Ngate-Cleethorpes/Grimsby service with lincoln-nottingham-leicster to allow direct services to grimsby/cleethorpes. at present only one train on sunday afternoon (in summer) travels from nottingham to cleethorpes! Also sunday services between nottingham and lincoln should start earlier.
3. Direct services lincoln to london either hourly or every two hours..i thought this was going ahead!
4. The service donc-lincoln-peterbourough needs making more regular. Also extend it to leeds if possible
5. Two services per hour nott to lincoln one stopping one fast. (this is wanted by EMDA)
6. Two services nott-skegness
7. Direct services between lincoln and skegness perhaps extending sheffield-lincoln service to skegness.
8. Direct services skegness to leicester (via peterborough) every hour.
9. Direct services skegness to london (maybe one a day return, more at summer weekends)

If number 7 was ever taken up I have the bad feeling that it would be a 142 nodding donkey allocated to do this service

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Looks like this subject wont die

RAIL Magazine no 714 ( which is out at the moment ), has 2 letters in the Open Access pages, complaints about a lack of a train depot or unit sidings at Lincoln Central, the lack of Network Rail giving Lincolnshire a proper review when it comes to rail travel.

Our old friend the subjects of the shocking state of Sunday services and the " Saturday Only Brigg line service were also highlighting, Management at Network Rail , Northern Rail & EMT been told to get out of their ivory towers and review their services.

As predicted with the Northern Rail & EMT franchises coming up for grabs soon, the shocking issues of Lincolnshire railway services is now gathering pace with the public.

 

[DarloRich]

Looks like this subject wont die

RAIL Magazine no 714 ( which is out at the moment ), has 2 letters in the Open Access pages, complaints about a lack of a train depot or unit sidings at Lincoln Central, the lack of Network Rail giving Lincolnshire a proper review when it comes to rail travel.

Our old friend the subjects of the shocking state of Sunday services and the " Saturday Only Brigg line service were also highlighting, Management at Network Rail , Northern Rail & EMT been told to get out of their ivory towers and review their services.

As predicted with the Northern Rail & EMT franchises coming up for grabs soon, the shocking issues of Lincolnshire railway services is now gathering pace with the public.

Mainly because you won’t let it!

I do wonder what the point of all this is. What do you expect? That Network Rail should immediate withdraw their CP5 plan and re hash it to ensure that Lincolnshire is connected to the 20th Century as quickly a possible? Perhaps we could change the Y shaped HS2 to a rotated L shape and run it to Lincoln. Why not build a vast bridge in the direction of Holland and create a second route to the continent? Perhaps Northern can immediately withdraw their terrible pacers (the same pacers that quite possibly kept the rural lines In Lincolnshire open, but never mind) and replace them with stock from the Orient Express

Lincolnshire is a rural area with a low population density and a relatively affluent population. Why should Lincolnshire benefit over, say, North Yorkshire or Devon? Can you suggest any realistic, sensible options to improve services? Bear in mind that you have to overcome a very strict cost/ benefit analysis process to do so. Please try to understand that a better service on your line won’t meet that criteria.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Mainly because you won’t let it!

I do wonder what the point of all this is. What do you expect? That Network Rail should immediate withdraw their CP5 plan and re hash it to ensure that Lincolnshire is connected to the 20th Century as quickly a possible? Perhaps we could change the Y shaped HS2 to a rotated L shape and run it to Lincoln. Why not build a vast bridge in the direction of Holland and create a second route to the continent? Perhaps Northern can immediately withdraw their terrible pacers (the same pacers that quite possibly kept the rural lines In Lincolnshire open, but never mind) and replace them with stock from the Orient Express

Someone got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning

NO I wont let up on it, I along with loads of other passgengers who travel in Lincolnshire have the right to ask for a better service than is provided at present.

As you seem to have flown of the handle with your suggestions I think you need pointing in the right direction of what people in Lincolnshire are asking for, they just want a bit of flexabilty in the services, they are not expecting gold plated trains with a service that runs every few minutes but just in some cases a service.

The ideas are very basic
Sheffield Midland - Gansborough Lea Road - Lincoln # A later service to leave SM at 2046 then depart Lincoln at 2227 ( Mon - Sat )
Northern to work with Network Rail / South Yorkshire PTE to have a 2hrly service on a Sunday that starts before 2pm due to the line been shut or a replacement bus service for the route.

Doncaster-Gainsborough-Lincoln-Sleaford-Spalding-Peterborough
#Service to run every 2 hrs thoughout the day along the entire route with future Sunday running to connect towns/citys up.

Sheffield Midland - Gainsborough Central - Brigg - Cleethorpes
# service to be connected up with the Barton Line service and either run a Doncaster-Gainsborough Central - Brigg - Barton - Grimsby - Cleethorpes service or EMT to run from Nottingham - Mansfield - Worksop - Gainsborough Central - Brigg - Grimsby - Cleethorpes with either service running every 2/3 hours.

 

[NSEFAN]

Mainly because you won’t let it!

I do wonder what the point of all this is. What do you expect? That Network Rail should immediate withdraw their CP5 plan and re hash it to ensure that Lincolnshire is connected to the 20th Century as quickly a possible? Perhaps we could change the Y shaped HS2 to a rotated L shape and run it to Lincoln. Why not build a vast bridge in the direction of Holland and create a second route to the continent? Perhaps Northern can immediately withdraw their terrible pacers (the same pacers that quite possibly kept the rural lines In Lincolnshire open, but never mind) and replace them with stock from the Orient Express

Lincolnshire is a rural area with a low population density and a relatively affluent population. Why should Lincolnshire benefit over, say, North Yorkshire or Devon? Can you suggest any realistic, sensible options to improve services? Bear in mind that you have to overcome a very strict cost/ benefit analysis process to do so. Please try to understand that a better service on your line won’t meet that criteria.

That's quite a strawman argument, there! Nobody is seriously suggesting we replace the pacers with VSOE stock!

Realistically, services can improve in Lincolnshire when electrification of busier routes elsewhere allows DMUs to shift onto more rural lines. IMHO it is a poor state of affairs to be running diesel trains on high-density lines in the 21st century.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I believe one of the moves proposed by sheff'd victoria was to give the Brigg line a regular service between Sheffield and Cleethorpes, but running via Barton-upon-Humber first. What a wonderful use of precious, limited money and resources!

I'd also be keen to hear any more plans they have, and like DarloRich, why they are more deserving than some of the other large, lightly populated counties around the UK.

 

[Tomnick]

Sheffield Midland - Gainsborough Central - Brigg - Cleethorpes
# service to be connected up with the Barton Line service and either run a Doncaster-Gainsborough Central - Brigg - Barton - Grimsby - Cleethorpes service or EMT to run from Nottingham - Mansfield - Worksop - Gainsborough Central - Brigg - Grimsby - Cleethorpes with either service running every 2/3 hours.

It's not the first time I've seen the suggestion to run a Brigg - Barton - Grimsby service, and I still maintain that it'd be utterly pointless and indeed counter-productive. Quite why there has to be any thought of interworking with the Barton service, I don't know - it manages quite nicely as a self-contained shuttle, since the round trip takes just under two hours.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The ideas are very basic
Sheffield Midland - Gansborough Lea Road - Lincoln # A later service to leave SM at 2046 then depart Lincoln at 2227 ( Mon - Sat )
Northern to work with Network Rail / South Yorkshire PTE to have a 2hrly service on a Sunday that starts before 2pm due to the line been shut or a replacement bus service for the route.

Doncaster-Gainsborough-Lincoln-Sleaford-Spalding-Peterborough
#Service to run every 2 hrs thoughout the day along the entire route with future Sunday running to connect towns/citys up.

Sheffield Midland - Gainsborough Central - Brigg - Cleethorpes
# service to be connected up with the Barton Line service and either run a Doncaster-Gainsborough Central - Brigg - Barton - Grimsby - Cleethorpes service or EMT to run from Nottingham - Mansfield - Worksop - Gainsborough Central - Brigg - Grimsby - Cleethorpes with either service running every 2/3 hours.

Where do you propose the stock to come from for points two and three? As you'll see if you read around here, EMT and their stock are in extremely limited number - see the alleged chronic unit shortage around Derby. Further to #3, surely running via Barton would decimate any case for an increase via Brigg?

Edit - Also with point 2 it sounds like you want to scrap the current hourly daytime service between Lincoln and Peterborough?

 

[tbtc]

Looks like this subject wont die

RAIL Magazine no 714 ( which is out at the moment ), has 2 letters in the Open Access pages

Who wrote the other one?

The ideas are very basic

run a Doncaster-Gainsborough Central - Brigg - Barton - Grimsby - Cleethorpes service

That's just the "basic" version? What's the "no expenses spared" version?

 

[sheff'd victoria]

I believe one of the moves proposed by sheff'd victoria was to give the Brigg line a regular service between Sheffield and Cleethorpes, but running via Barton-upon-Humber first. What a wonderful use of precious, limited money and resources!

I'd also be keen to hear any more plans they have, and like DarloRich, why they are more deserving than some of the other large, lightly populated counties around the UK.

If you read my comments the route would be changed to run to Doncaster instead of Sheffield Midland

It's not the first time I've seen the suggestion to run a Brigg - Barton - Grimsby service, and I still maintain that it'd be utterly pointless and indeed counter-productive. Quite why there has to be any thought of interworking with the Barton service, I don't know - it manages quite nicely as a self-contained shuttle, since the round trip takes just under two hours.

The friends of the Barton line who have a great say in this service are all for a Doncaster or Gainsborough Central - Brigg - Barton - Grimsby - Cleethorpes service to run as part of the 2014 Northern Rail franchise.

Where do you propose the stock to come from for points two and three? As you'll see if you read around here, EMT and their stock are in extremely limited number - see the alleged chronic unit shortage around Derby. Further to #3, surely running via Barton would decimate any case for an increase via Brigg?

The line would need an extra one or two class 153 to run a Doncaster or Gainsborough Central - Brigg - Barton - Cleethorpes service, as for extra stock that fault lies with the DfT and governments inthe past for not ordering trains, as I keep saying the " Brigg" line is having a major review by the DfT as part of the 2014 Northern Rail franchise

Edit - Also with point 2 it sounds like you want to scrap the current hourly daytime service between Lincoln and Peterborough?

Sorry should have gone into a bit more detail about this route, the service would be every hourly from Lincoln - Peterborough but the timetable would change so their is a better service thoughout the day on the route and not half of it stopping at 4pm and then restarting later in the evening.

Who wrote the other one?

Who every it was was to the point

That's just the "basic" version? What's the "no expenses spared" version?

Lincolnshire to form its own PTE so it has a greater say in rail travel

 

[Tomnick]

The friends of the Barton line who have a great say in this service are all for a Doncaster or Gainsborough Central - Brigg - Barton - Grimsby - Cleethorpes service to run as part of the 2014 Northern Rail franchise

But what benefit would it provide? I can't imagine there being a great deal of demand for travel between the Barton line and stations west of Habrough: there's not a huge amount of traffic originating from the stations on the branch (and any such demand it'd be best served by improved connections at Habrough rather than diluting the more useful service towards Grimsby anyway), and anyone from north of the Humber has a decent rail service in that direction anyway. I can see there being some demand for a decent service from Worksop, Retford, Gainsboro', Kirton and Brigg towards Grimsby and Cleethorpes (and the first train out and lack back in the summer seem to be well loaded for this reason) - running via Barton would destroy any potential to serve this market. The whole proposal seems to, as is so often the case, be based upon enthusiasts looking solely at lines on a map and trying to justify direct services from their own little station to everywhere else in the country.

 

[tbtc]

The friends of the Barton line who have a great say in this service are all for a Doncaster or Gainsborough Central - Brigg - Barton - Grimsby - Cleethorpes service to run as part of the 2014 Northern Rail franchise

Obviously the "friends of the Barton line" are going to want to divert longer distance services up and down their branch, thus giving a lot more journey opportunities to a line that doesn't trouble the capacity of a bi-hourly 153 (every local pressure group wants their little line to be the centre of the universe), but is there any reason why you'd use scarce DMUs to run a Doncaster - Gainsborough - Barton - Cleethorpes route?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Just wow....
How can you seriously suggest a service that goes up to Barton then down to Cleethorpes after... Potentially causing huge damage to a local shuttle service when signalling problems in Doncaster or a cable theft delay trains leavign no services to Barton at all. I agree Sheffield Lincoln should be better, maybe some other suggestions too like more trains via brigg... but via Barton. Join the real world its quite nice i promise.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Obviously the "friends of the Barton line" are going to want to divert longer distance services up and down their branch, thus giving a lot more journey opportunities to a line that doesn't trouble the capacity of a bi-hourly 153 (every local pressure group wants their little line to be the centre of the universe), but is there any reason why you'd use scarce DMUs to run a Doncaster - Gainsborough - Barton - Cleethorpes route?

The Doncaster idea is for two reasons , one is for a better connection for train crews and the other is when they build a station at Doncaster Airport they will need a train to stop their.

. I can see there being some demand for a decent service from Worksop, Retford, Gainsboro', Kirton and Brigg towards Grimsby and Cleethorpes (and the first train out and lack back in the summer seem to be well loaded for this reason) .

That is why the other suggestion is for EMT to take over the " Brigg " line from Northern and run from Nottingham or Worksop to Brigg - Grimsby - Cleethorpes

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Any idea where EMT would magic up the additional rolling stock required from? Also, why must the Northern proposal run via Barton and the EMT proposal direct to Grimsby? Why not vice versa? Why run via Barton at all in fact?

 

[tbtc]

Any idea where EMT would magic up the additional rolling stock required from? Also, why must the Northern proposal run via Barton and the EMT proposal direct to Grimsby? Why not vice versa? Why run via Barton at all in fact?

I don't know - it's not as if EMT are blessed with spare DMUs (as the single 153s to Crewe shows).

For me, it's about how to best allocate finite resources (i.e. DMUs).

 

[Philip Elliott]

Any idea where EMT would magic up the additional rolling stock required from? Also, why must the Northern proposal run via Barton and the EMT proposal direct to Grimsby? Why not vice versa? Why run via Barton at all in fact?

You know it is actually possible to build more trains. No-one is suggesting massive improvments should be done overnight. "Not enough stock" is a total strawman argument.

 

[HSTEd]

How about shifting stock around to convert the Nottingham-Skegness trains to Class 158 operation, then tack them onto the Liverpool-Norwich trains?
This way you can divide in Platform 4 at Grantham and save the second crew over the Grantham-Nottingham section, as well as all the annoying moves in Nottingham station.

There is so much slack in the express journey time these days that you could easily fit in the "slow" trains stops and the trains are only 15 minute apart so its not really 2tph anyway.

It also provides through vehicles between places like Sheffield and Skegness.

 

[Tomnick]

The only problem (with an otherwise reasonable suggestion) is that the Skeggy trains tend to pick up the calls at the intermediate stations between Nottingham and Grantham. Is Platform 4 at Grantham permissive?

 

[HSTEd]

The only problem (with an otherwise reasonable suggestion) is that the Skeggy trains tend to pick up the calls at the intermediate stations between Nottingham and Grantham. Is Platform 4 at Grantham permissive?

I don't know about the platforms but there is a great deal of slack time in the Express timings between Grantham and Nottingham, it is not uncommon to wait for several minutes outside Nottingham before proceeding into the station.

It might be enough to pick up the calls.

 

[High Dyke]

I don't know about the platforms but there is a great deal of slack time in the Express timings between Grantham and Nottingham, it is not uncommon to wait for several minutes outside Nottingham before proceeding into the station.

It might be enough to pick up the calls.

Yes Permissive Working is permitted in the 'Western' at Grantham for Classes 1, 2 and 5 only.

The Sunday service is poor. Newark - Nottingham from 15:40 onwards at anytime of the year, whilst Newark - Lincoln does get a couple on a Sunday morning to coonect at Newark Northgate. Don't forget the Nottingham - Grantham line doesn't start until 12:00 on Sundays either between September - May.

All this talk of long journies you all forgot the Skegvegas - Aberystwyth service that was usually a 153. Or was that best forgotten?

 

[Welshman]

All this talk of long journies you all forgot the Skegvegas - Aberystwyth service that was usually a 153. Or was that best forgotten?

Yes- the wonderful days of Central Trains - the "Yarmouth to Barmouth" Railway!

 

[jp347]

With respect to the (Doncaster) - Lincoln - Peterborough service:
As a Spalding resident we really could do with a better service. The town is growing and has a population of 28,722 (2011 census). The extension of the services into the evening would be very useful and a later service ideal as the train is already the latest way to get back to the town (buses stop earlier). More services to/from the north would use little rolling stock, if any, as much of the route is already served and it would make sense to change the service when the joint line upgrade is complete. Sunday services would be very useful too as we currently have nothing towards Lincoln (no buses or trains) and only about 4 buses to Peterborough, stopping around 17:00.
I think it is a shame the Lincoln - London service does not come our way as it would connect Spalding and Sleaford to London and help East Coast keep drivers knowledge of a diversionary route.

Long term I would like to see FCC extend under the wires to Spalding, but that would cost a lot more and probably the wires would have to go up for freight first, then just be used by them.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

I think it is a shame the Lincoln - London service does not come our way as it would connect Spalding and Sleaford to London and help East Coast keep drivers knowledge of a diversionary route.

Thats a great idea.

It is a shame TOC like Grand Central dont run via Lincoln , Sleaford & Spalding then you would at least a few extra trains on this diversionsary route from the ECML

but is there any reason why you'd use scarce DMUs to run a Doncaster - Gainsborough - Barton - Cleethorpes route?

To connected areas up by train that are cut off at present with towns and connections.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

... And how much demand is there from Doncaster and Gainsborough to Barton? It's all very well and good saying it'll get it on the map and whatever, however the only new connections here would be an increased service from Donny to Gainsborough and a service from the West to Barton, which I doubt there's any demand for. I mean surely the case for running a service to Cleethorpes ex-Brigg regularly would be severely impacted by a needless detour via Barton?

 

[Welshman]

Thats a great idea.

It is a shame TOC like Grand Central dont run via Lincoln , Sleaford & Spalding then you would at least a few extra trains on this diversionsary route from the ECML

I seem to remember a few years ago there was talk of the possibility of Hull Trains operating a daily Grimsby-Lincoln-Sleaford-Spalding-King's Cross service. Is that now dead in the water?

I suppose HT would need some extra stock, given a new route and the problems they've had recently with their existing stock.