Manchester Metrolink master thread

[radamfi]

Metrolink certainly seems to have a reputation for poor performance nowadays. Unlike National Rail, there are no publicly available punctuality statistics AFAIK.

Back in the early days of the network, the service used to be flawless. There used to be very reliable connections between the Bury and Altrincham routes at Piccadilly Gardens and they used to arrive simultaneously. They would even stop at the right part of the platform to allow easy connections. I think things went downhill once the Eccles line opened (initially as far as Broadway).

 

[Manchester77]

Whenever a new line opens reliability drops as trams are re pathed adjust to the new timetable. For example when the EML opened, because of PIC terminators turning round at Sheffield Street (or Velopark in the case of MCUK) the Eccles Lines reliability dropped because of the MCUK service loosing time. If Hesse newline blips were iliminated we would only ever hav Inferstructure delays...

 

[Starmill]

At the moment, I feel a little bit like the whole thing can (and frequently does) just fall apart at any moment, with the timetable just so fragile that if something goes there's just nothing the controllers can do about it. It's like a sort of deformed robot-hybrid creature that has had new limbs stuck on to it and has had to be patched up each time and instead of eventually fitting neatly together, each new extension makes the whole more cracked, broken, unstable...

Indepently of the intensely infuriating reliability problems with equipment at NH&M, I think the Eccles line's timetable has suffered the most. And that was not what one might call reliable to begin with.

I remember when we were debating about the Droylsden opening, it was thought that it would be theoretically impossible for a solution to be found at Piccadilly. We all know how they got around that - by shunting the MediaCity at Velopark - but I'm starting to wonder if this now means that, even in a perfect 'ceteris paribus' model where everything runs exactly to time, our current timetable is actually possible to work a full service for? The sooner the whole thing is re-written from scratch, the better!

 

[gnolife]

At the moment, I feel a little bit like the whole thing can (and frequently does) just fall apart at any moment, with the timetable just so fragile that if something goes there's just nothing the controllers can do about it. It's like a sort of deformed robot-hybrid creature that has had new limbs stuck on to it and has had to be patched up each time and instead of eventually fitting neatly together, each new extension makes the whole more cracked, broken, unstable...

Indepently of the intensely infuriating reliability problems with equipment at NH&M, I think the Eccles line's timetable has suffered the most. And that was not what one might call reliable to begin with.

I remember when we were debating about the Droylsden opening, it was thought that it would be theoretically impossible for a solution to be found at Piccadilly. We all know how they got around that - by shunting the MediaCity at Velopark - but I'm starting to wonder if this now means that, even in a perfect 'ceteris paribus' model where everything runs exactly to time, our current timetable is actually possible to work a full service for? The sooner the whole thing is re-written from scratch, the better!

I agree, its not as if your average user can easily find out the exact timetable, so he's not going to care about whether his tram from Timperley to Besses o' th' Barn is due at 06 minutes past rather than 10 past, as long as something turns up.

 

[Manchester77]

I agree, its not as if your average user can easily find out the exact timetable, so he's not going to care about whether his tram from Timperley to Besses o' th' Barn is due at 06 minutes past rather than 10 past, as long as something turns up.

Here's the link to the traveline timetables
MET1 - http://traveline-northwest.co.uk/timetableplanner/confirmServiceLookup.do
MET2 - http://traveline-northwest.co.uk/timetableplanner/confirmServiceLookup.do
MET3 - http://traveline-northwest.co.uk/timetableplanner/confirmServiceLookup.do
MET4 - http://traveline-northwest.co.uk/timetableplanner/confirmServiceLookup.do
MET5 - http://traveline-northwest.co.uk/timetableplanner/confirmServiceLookup.do

 

[Nym]

Here's the link to the traveline timetables
MET1 - http://traveline-northwest.co.uk/timetableplanner/confirmServiceLookup.do
MET2 - http://traveline-northwest.co.uk/timetableplanner/confirmServiceLookup.do
MET3 - http://traveline-northwest.co.uk/timetableplanner/confirmServiceLookup.do
MET4 - http://traveline-northwest.co.uk/timetableplanner/confirmServiceLookup.do
MET5 - http://traveline-northwest.co.uk/timetableplanner/confirmServiceLookup.do

They're all the same link, and none have any metadata attached to them

 

[Manchester77]

http://sn.ickl.in/cgi-bin/timetable

Here we go. That gives real time info based on the timetable

 

[WatcherZero]

I think Gnolifes point is that there isnt a public timetable, only that used for journey planners (which have to know aproximate times for generating connections) and that used by the drivers themselves.

 

[Starmill]

http://sn.ickl.in/cgi-bin/timetable

Here we go. That gives real time info based on the timetable

A bit misleading then calling it 'real-time' info isn't it? What's the reasonable expectation that, but about this time on a weekday, any of those trams will actually resemble working the diagrams? Sorry - I'd not say it were that high.

I agree, its not as if your average user can easily find out the exact timetable, so he's not going to care about whether his tram from Timperley to Besses o' th' Barn is due at 06 minutes past rather than 10 past, as long as something turns up.

This is, of course, the counter-argument. It matters little enough to anyone if trams are not running to their workings. If every single tram were exactly 12 mins late, or even 60 mins late, it'd make no difference to passengers, as they will still be waiting no longer than the advertised frequency!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This is, of course, the counter-argument. It matters little enough to anyone if trams are not running to their workings. If every single tram were exactly 12 mins late, or even 60 mins late, it'd make no difference to passengers, as they will still be waiting no longer than the advertised frequency!

Does the Sheffield Supertram system experience similar timetable adherence problems ?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I believe that the Sheffield Supertram offers no such live-running info either.

 

[Starmill]

I believe that the Sheffield Supertram offers no such live-running info either.

They don't even have PIDs do they? And the ones in Nottingham and Croydon are rather basic and, certainly in the case of Croydon, not that helpful. What do they have in the Midlands?

We, on the other hand, well it looks like we bought the same ones as LO did for new stations?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How long will it now be before the Cornbrook to Media City UK shuttle service will be in full operation ?

 

[Manchester77]

How long will it now be before the Cornbrook to Media City UK shuttle service will be in full operation ?

There has been a lot of work around the Cornbrook siding recently installing a lot of TMS stuff. My thinking is once TMS is operating the city centre and up to Cornbrook

 

[Starmill]

There has been a lot of work around the Cornbrook siding recently installing a lot of TMS stuff. My thinking is once TMS is operating the city centre and up to Cornbrook

That tractor on rails was still there yesterday - plus a whole forest of yellow TMS mushrooms!

 

[northwichcat]

This is, of course, the counter-argument. It matters little enough to anyone if trams are not running to their workings. If every single tram were exactly 12 mins late, or even 60 mins late, it'd make no difference to passengers, as they will still be waiting no longer than the advertised frequency!

Well it would make a difference for some passengers - if the first tram was 12 minutes late then some people are going to be late at their final destination. Saying 60 minutes late could make a huge difference due to that being the same as 5 cancelled trams at the start of the day, so the following hour there would likely be trams that are too full for everyone to board.

If you're making a connection to/from heavy rail at Piccadilly, Deansgate or Altrincham it would also make a difference if for some reason the Altrincham-Bury trams ran 6 minutes later than usual and the Altrincham-Piccadilly and Piccadilly-Bury trams ran 6 minutes earlier than usual.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If you're making a connection to/from heavy rail at Piccadilly, Deansgate or Altrincham it would also make a difference if for some reason the Altrincham-Bury trams ran 6 minutes later than usual and the Altrincham-Piccadilly and Piccadilly-Bury trams ran 6 minutes earlier than usual.

I think that as the Bury service is now Bury to Droylsden, it could be disrupted on both sides of Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[radamfi]

I think you are supposed to assume that you wait the full headway time (that is 6, 12 or 15 minutes) regardless of what any timetable says. That is how the TfL journey planner works. It assumes you wait the maximum time for buses and tubes defined as being 'high frequency', which is every 12 minutes or better.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Another stage of work is scheduled for Rochdale town centre, as the erection of the poles for the OHLE on Maclure Road, Drake Street and Smith Street is expected to be completed by Wednesday of this week.

 

[Starmill]

Well it would make a difference for some passengers - if the first tram was 12 minutes late then some people are going to be late at their final destination. Saying 60 minutes late could make a huge difference due to that being the same as 5 cancelled trams at the start of the day, so the following hour there would likely be trams that are too full for everyone to board.

Well, yes. Five trams completely missing their duties would do that to passenger loadings on the first one that ran (if this unlikely scenario ever came to pass, most would probably have gone to get the bus anyway). This isn't the only way delays could occur though!

Regardless, the timings of the first and last trams are (or, at least, were... most of the time) closely monitored and preserved. They are probably the most reliable workings.

If you're making a connection to/from heavy rail at Piccadilly, Deansgate or Altrincham it would also make a difference if for some reason the Altrincham-Bury trams ran 6 minutes later than usual and the Altrincham-Piccadilly and Piccadilly-Bury trams ran 6 minutes earlier than usual.

What, so they'd all turn up at the same time? Cobblers, that practically happens anyway!

 

[Greybeard33]

I think you are supposed to assume that you wait the full headway time (that is 6, 12 or 15 minutes) regardless of what any timetable says. That is how the TfL journey planner works. It assumes you wait the maximum time for buses and tubes defined as being 'high frequency', which is every 12 minutes or better.

The trouble is, that is not the way the Traveline North West Journey Planner on the TfGM website works. It quotes precise departure and arrival times from the (unpublished) Metrolink timetables and sometimes allows less than 12 minutes to change from light to heavy rail at Piccadilly, including the time to walk from the Metrolink undercroft to the mainline station (which it says takes less than one minute!) If you turn up at the departure stop at the time it says, but the tram is 11 minutes late, you are very likely to miss your connection, even if the tram is not further delayed en route. Example from Traveline:
Sale dep. 07:43
Piccadilly (Metrolink) arr. 08:04
Piccadilly (mainline) dep. 08:15 (!)
London Euston arr. 10:23

 

[Starmill]

The trouble is, that is not the way the Traveline North West Journey Planner on the TfGM website works. It quotes precise departure and arrival times from the (unpublished) Metrolink timetables and sometimes allows less than 12 minutes to change from light to heavy rail at Piccadilly, including the time to walk from the Metrolink undercroft to the mainline station (which it says takes less than one minute!) If you turn up at the departure stop at the time it says, but the tram is 11 minutes late, you are very likely to miss your connection, even if the tram is not further delayed en route. Example from Traveline:
Sale dep. 07:43
Piccadilly (Metrolink) arr. 08:04
Piccadilly (mainline) dep. 08:15 (!)
London Euston arr. 10:23

It actually tells people to do that!? WOW. If I were on the 08:15, I would want to get myself to Sale for 7! And make sure I've got a number for a taxi!

Hypocritically, my first train of the day to Man Pic (from my house) arrives the exact minimum connection time (10 mins) before a Pendo I sometimes get advances for. I figure, if the Northern train is late, I'd be able to use the advances on the next Vrigin!

 

[PR1Berske]

Government response to Woodlands Road closure

source: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...t_data/file/142143/consultation-responses.pdf

Repeated here is the "best bits"


*

Following consideration of the replies, and having received confirmation from Transport for Greater Manchester that planning consent for the new station at Queens Road was granted on 27 February 2013 and that there is a timetable for its opening, Ministers are minded to allow the proposed closure to proceed. The closure is first subject to ratification by the Office for Rail Regulation, which is not automatic.

*

The Government believes that whilst some passengers who currently use
Woodlands Road will be inconvenienced by having to travel a little further to
access the Metrolink at Abraham Moss or Queens Road, more people will
benefit from the new stations being closer to where they live.

All passengers will benefit from the improved environment at these stations noting that the new stations are fully accessible, are well lit and have full CCTV coverage. In the case of the alley way to Abraham Moss, an additional passenger emergency call point and CCTV cameras are provided next to the stop entrance as recommended by the Crime Impact Statement submitted with TfGM’s planning application. It will be for Manchester City Council to make sure that the routes to and from the new station are safe.

*

The Government believes that whilst some passengers living in the Cheetham Hill area who currently use Woodlands Road will be inconvenienced by having to travel a little further to access the Metrolink at Abraham Moss, others will benefit from the new stations being closer to where they live, particularly once Queens Road Station is opened.

 

[Rail Bus]

Can somebody please tell me why from St Peters Square tonight did nine consecutive trams go to St Werburghs Road? (most of which were empty). Leaving us passengers for Altrincham (and those for Eccles) waiting for over an hour and a half in poor weather

Apparently an earlier broken down tram in the CASTLEFIELD area had caused disruption (but announcements were vague and none of the St Werburghs drivers seemed to know what was going on)

What I don't understand is why were the St Werburghs able to run but the Altrincham was not if the disruption was created by a broken down tram at Castlefield? Why did it take over an hour and a half to restore service? And why couldn't some of those empty St Werburghs Road trams have been diverted to Altrincham? Why were hundreds of stranded passengers treated so poorly in such poor weather?

The service now is so appalling and it just gets worse and worse

 

[Manchester77]

Can somebody please tell me why from St Peters Square tonight did nine consecutive trams go to St Werburghs Road? (most of which were empty). Leaving us passengers for Altrincham (and those for Eccles) waiting for over an hour and a half in poor weather

Apparently an earlier broken down tram in the CASTLEFIELD area had caused disruption (but announcements were vague and none of the St Werburghs drivers seemed to know what was going on)

What I don't understand is why were the St Werburghs able to run but the Altrincham was not if the disruption was created by a broken down tram at Castlefield? Why did it take over an hour and a half to restore service? And why couldn't some of those empty St Werburghs Road trams have been diverted to Altrincham? Why were hundreds of stranded passengers treated so poorly in such poor weather?

The service now is so appalling and it just gets worse and worse

No there was a failed unit at Mosley Street stopping all services across the city.

Basically all the trams were in the wrong place. ORL-SML services are longer so they will have headed up the ORL from Victoria turned round at RRS and then returned to be be blocked in the it's. meanwhile Altrincham & Eccles Trams turn around at the Sheffield Street Turnback a shorter distance meaning that services bunched. And don't forget, it's not like its 4 track where they could have services passing one another to even it out if the order happens to be SWR SWR SWR SWR ALT then you will have 4 St Serbughs Trams before and Altrincham one.

What probably happened was that the failed tram was a double T68 and the retractable steps didn't retract upon departure meaning he doors couldn't close. They'd then have to terminate the service and get passengers off and try to retract the steps and then probably return it to the depot but to do that they'd have to turn it around and the nearest crossover is on the DGCF ramp where the tram will have reversed and been taken back to Queens Road.

This has been the first vehicle failure in a while actually. There have been other delays but some you cannot blame metrolink for!! For example for 2 Saturdays now there has been a suspension between Timperly and Altrincham for over 40 minutes because of network rail issues. You can't blame them if a level crossing they don't vp even operate breaks...

And it's not like steps aren't being taken. Full fleet replacement, new signalling, addition city crossing, additional capacity etc etc

 

[Rail Bus]

why couldn't some of the St Werburghs Road trams (which were empty) be diverted to Altrincham when there were hundreds of passengers waiting?

The service now is appalling and getting worse - I know commuters who have left the tram over the last eighteen months, and I may do the same

The paying public deserve better

Why does it take 30-35 min Altrincham - St Peters now? (I do it every morning, and the new trams are a lot slower than the old - indeed a double old is a huge relief in the morning!!)

New signaling? Which dosen't work!! We all enjoy the five minute stop at the red light between Trafford Bar and Cornbrook every morning

Metrolink is commonly known as Metro****e in the Altrincham area

 

[Manchester77]

why couldn't some of the St Werburghs Road trams (which were empty) be diverted to Altrincham when there were hundreds of passengers waiting?

The service now is appalling and getting worse - I know commuters who have left the tram over the last eighteen months, and I may do the same

The paying public deserve better

Why does it take 30-35 min Altrincham - St Peters now? (I do it every morning, and the new trams are a lot slower than the old - indeed a double old is a huge relief in the morning!!)

New signaling? Which dosen't work!! We all enjoy the five minute stop at the red light between Trafford Bar and Cornbrook every morning

Metrolink is commonly known as Metro****e in the Altrincham area

:roll:

Because SWR won't have had any trams down there either. There are more and more trams as we get more services and until the roll out of TMS capacity over the Cornbrook viaduct will remain at 30 tph.

New signalling? Which isn't currently operational. After TMS there won't be any 'red lights' and even that doesn't mean that it's not working...
They're railway signals so when your on a train and it stops at a red signal doesn't mean it doesn't work, do you actually have any idea how it operates?!

 

[12CSVT]

ORL-SML services are longer so they will have headed up the ORL from Victoria turned round at RRS ............................

Just a polite reminder that not all forum users are familiar with the abbreviations and station codes.

 

[Starmill]

why couldn't some of the St Werburghs Road trams (which were empty) be diverted to Altrincham when there were hundreds of passengers waiting?

The service now is appalling and getting worse - I know commuters who have left the tram over the last eighteen months, and I may do the same

The paying public deserve better

Why does it take 30-35 min Altrincham - St Peters now? (I do it every morning, and the new trams are a lot slower than the old - indeed a double old is a huge relief in the morning!!)

New signaling? Which dosen't work!! We all enjoy the five minute stop at the red light between Trafford Bar and Cornbrook every morning

Metrolink is commonly known as Metro****e in the Altrincham area

This sort of thing is all too common; the experience is poor, we all know that. Unfortunately, there is just nothing anyone can do about it until TMS (the aforementioned new signalling) is rolled out across the network.

What you describe about waiting at up to 3 red lights for paths through Cornbrook is absolutely typical atm. There are currently 25tph heading city-bound through there of a morning peak (5 to Bury, 5 to Rochdale, 5 to Piccadilly from Altrincham, 5 to Piccadilly from Eccles and 5 to Piccadilly from MediaCity). What the practical maximum capacity of the signalling was though there is anybody's guess, but its fairly likely to be 20 or less. That's why its being replaced, but it doesn't work yet! The extended journeytime is also a valid complaint; the new trams are subject to speed restrictions because if they went at 50, you'd all fall over every morning with the shaking from side to side! One hears the cause of this is subject to investigation, but one proposed theory is that its caused by the wear patterns the T68s (old trams) leave on the tracks. Once they are all withdrawn this problem should disappear. BUT no more can be withdrawn until Mosley St is closed, because only then can the new trams work in double sets. Why can't we close Mosley St? Because there are no 'next tram' screens in the city centre. Why's that? Because the new signalling doesn't work! See what it all comes down to?

 

[Techniquest]

Just a polite reminder that not all forum users are familiar with the abbreviations and station codes.

Quite so, I read that post and was completely confuzzled. Makes things hard to understand the latest Metrolink gen if it's not at all obvious what the TLAs are!

TLA = Three Letter Acronym by the way. Almost certainly the most useless TLA in the world