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Manchester Metrolink master thread

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Nym

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So based on today's news that Manchester residents are statistically among the least healthy in the UK, the average Manchester person probably takes up more space than in other cities.

Are you honestly this desprate to make it look as though my knowledge is in some way inferior to your own? I'm perfectly capable of providing a proper analysis, but for the purpouses of a quick post on an internet forum I deemed the use of a simple, industry standard metric sufficent.

If you'd like a more in depth analysis, you're welcome to carry it out yourself and please, do show us how you calculated it...
 
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northwichcat

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Are you honestly this desprate to make it look as though my knowledge is in some way inferior to your own? I'm perfectly capable of providing a proper analysis, but for the purpouses of a quick post on an internet forum I deemed the use of a simple, industry standard metric sufficent.

If you'd like a more in depth analysis, you're welcome to carry it out yourself and please, do show us how you calculated it...

What you've done is answered the question posed by starmill making certain assumptions, for instance, presumably you based your calculations on the 52 seater M5000s not the 58 seater ones?

However, that question by starmill was in response to a claim by 185 that there would have been 600 on board that service as the trams were packed. To use your calculation to verify that claim isn't really possible, as we don't know what number of seats the trams had, what size the people were, how many people boarded with possessions like rucksacks etc. I'm not trying to say an alternative calculation with the available facts could verify the claim, just that there's insufficient information.
 

F Great Eastern

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Having used the Metrolink a lot in the last week or two, can someone tell me what is the point of Pomona station?

I've been through it about 20 times and nobody ever gets on or off? From what I can see on one side of it is the railway, on the other side a disused factory block that is to let, a river, then over the river other buildings that would be much closer to Exchange Quay
 

Manchester77

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It's supposed to be for the Pomona docks development yet to be built

It'll be an interchange with the TC line when that is built though...
 

rogger13

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Having used the Metrolink a lot in the last week or two, can someone tell me what is the point of Pomona station?

I've been through it about 20 times and nobody ever gets on or off? From what I can see on one side of it is the railway, on the other side a disused factory block that is to let, a river, then over the river other buildings that would be much closer to Exchange Quay


I agree......
 

edwin_m

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While I agree that "No Entry Except Trams" is far clearer than "Trams Only"... this is The Highway Code we are talking out. It is your responsibility to know it, as it is the responsibility of anyone who uses the road. Ignorance is not an excuse.

There's probably also something in the Highway Code about sticking to the speed limit... or not using a mobile when driving. Heck, there may even be something about not driving down a tramline. Along with all the other tramway-highway interfaces, Holt Town is already provided with several large "Tram only" signs.
 

Starmill

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When I passed through the Kingsway Business Park stop en route to Rochdale railway station quite recently, there was much unused land on the left-hand side still untouched.

Yeah, but, there are plans afoot to do much with it? Are there not?

Unlike Pomona island?
 

Midlandman

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I was travelling from Eccles about 3 weeks ago and a woman and her daughter were sitting on the platform at Pomona apparently waiting for a tram towards Eccles/Media City. Of course, they could have just been enjoying the view but they were the only people I've ever seen at the station apart from Metrolink staff. I used to work in City Park, across the canal from Pomona. We watched it being built and, even then, wondered why.
 

johnnychips

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So based on today's news that Manchester residents are statistically among the least healthy in the UK, the average Manchester person probably takes up more space than in other cities.

I doubt Manchester's high mortality rate is because of obesity. More like higher smoking rates, and older people who worked in unhealthy manufacturing industries. But this is pure conjecture, not backed up by stats.

EDIT: By trying to Google some statistics, it seems nearly everywhere has increased its obesity, but the North West is lower than many other areas of England. It's probably my fault, but all I can easily find are some not very accurate maps, rather than hard statistics.

http://www.noo.org.uk/visualisation/adult_obesity
 
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I went to Manchester yesterday and bought a GMPTE travelcard so I could travel on a number of the new tram routes.

As a Sheffield resident we can only envy the new routes that are now in place around Manchester.

1 or 2 things did pop up whilst I was travelling around.

For some reason the tram from Rochdale Station to Oldham travelled very slowly on the new track ( about 20 mph ) is their any reason for this ?

When we got to Oldham Mumps the tram was full, are their any plans to increase to frequency between Oldham and Manchester to cope with demand ?

The only down side with the new trams are the seats, after 20 minutes it was num bum time :(
 

WatcherZero

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Yes its planned to have a 12 minute service from Rochdale and a 12 minute service from Shaw to give a 6 minute service on most of the line however this wont come in until after the Victoria work next year that will see the station temporarily closed for refurbishment and limited paths through the site. In the short term their planning to gradually double the length of the services as new stock enters service until they are nearly all double then they can be split into a higher frequency.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I was travelling from Eccles about 3 weeks ago and a woman and her daughter were sitting on the platform at Pomona apparently waiting for a tram towards Eccles/Media City. Of course, they could have just been enjoying the view but they were the only people I've ever seen at the station apart from Metrolink staff. I used to work in City Park, across the canal from Pomona. We watched it being built and, even then, wondered why.

I used Pomona once, in a misguided attempt to reach Old Trafford cricket ground (this was when the Altrincham line was closed for refurbishment).
When you've got off it is impossible to go in a straight line to anywhere, because of the intervening two canals and the ring road racetrack.
The only highlight was passing "Throstle Nest Bridge" on the Bridgewater Canal, dating from 1761.
For those with long memories, the nearby Throstle Nest East/West Junctions were once important signal boxes on the CLC, controlling the route towards Chorlton and St Pancras/Woodhead. Demolished c1970 I think.
Beautiful names for signal boxes, but completely inappropriate...
One of the old MSC steam tugs was named Pomona.
Pomona used to be the site of "pleasure gardens" in the style of Vauxhall in London, before the railway and docks arrived.
http://www.parksandgardens.org/places-and-people/site/6477
 

radamfi

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For some reason the tram from Rochdale Station to Oldham travelled very slowly on the new track ( about 20 mph ) is their any reason for this ?

So this is still happening. I can understand slow running towards Rochdale as there can only be one tram between Newbold and Rochdale station at any one time. When Rochdale town centre opens will this slow running end?
 

Starmill

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So this is still happening. I can understand slow running towards Rochdale as there can only be one tram between Newbold and Rochdale station at any one time. When Rochdale town centre opens will this slow running end?

It certainly worked that way last time. The timetable was so slack on Werby's to Mumps that when the short extension to Shaw opened in December all they did was tighten up the timings - no more trams were needed! Really did make the ORL seem much faster.

There appears to be a degree of autonomy with the drivers how they space out the waiting. Most go reasonably fast outbound until leaving Shaw, then slow down so as not to have to sit at Newbold too long - though they often do have to sit there for a few mins anyway. On the return, all they have to do is arrive at the junction with the Bury line on time, so some drivers go slowly all the way, most run quite a bit faster between Oldham and Monsall though than they do on the new section.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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So this is still happening. I can understand slow running towards Rochdale as there can only be one tram between Newbold and Rochdale station at any one time. When Rochdale town centre opens will this slow running end?

In the Rochdale area, there is the historical matter of the Wellington Bridge, that was original built for carry heavy-rail double track when first constructed in 1882 by the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway, which was the reason why TfGM held a feasibility study upon when the conversion of the line to the Manchester Metrolink system was envisaged. It was found that the required strength of the bridge decking to carry new double track slabs and rails was compromised by the condition of the existing bridge decking which lay 150mm below the sub-ballast in places.

It was reported back to TfGM that this posed severe technical challenges and doubts were expressed as to the ability for the existing bridge decking to carry the required trackwork infrastructure. Doubts were also expressed as to the conditions of the base ground bridge foundations.

With the unbudgeted costs to replace the existing bridge decking and for the bridge foundation refurbishments being a matter of project financial consideration, it was finally decided by TfGM that the solution would be that the new Manchester Metrolink where it passed over Wellington Bridge would be in the form of a single-track, bi-directionally signalled, that the existing bridge decking would support. It was stated that such a solution would not impact upon the operation performance of the new Manchester Metrolink system, which would see double trackwork reintroduced on the line from Shaw to Rochdale, which had been reduced to single track heavy rail operation for many years before the line closure for conversion.
 

radamfi

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The bottom of Drake Street is rather steep, does anyone know the gradient? How does it compare with other gradients on the network?

Why does it go into a single line for a short time at the bottom of Drake Street, only to widen out again into two tracks around the corner?
 

snowball

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Why does it go into a single line for a short time at the bottom of Drake Street, only to widen out again into two tracks around the corner?

It goes into a single line for the reason explained by Paul two posts above yours. The corner at the bottom of Drake Street is carried on a hidden bridge over the River Roch, that is weak. I suppose they could have kept it a single line into the terminus, but redoubling gives flexibility if things go wrong.
 

46223

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In the Rochdale area, there is the historical matter of the Wellington Bridge, that was original built for carry heavy-rail double track when first constructed in 1882 by the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway, which was the reason why TfGM held a feasibility study upon when the conversion of the line to the Manchester Metrolink system was envisaged. It was found that the required strength of the bridge decking to carry new double track slabs and rails was compromised by the condition of the existing bridge decking which lay 150mm below the sub-ballast in places.

It was reported back to TfGM that this posed severe technical challenges and doubts were expressed as to the ability for the existing bridge decking to carry the required trackwork infrastructure. Doubts were also expressed as to the conditions of the base ground bridge foundations.

With the unbudgeted costs to replace the existing bridge decking and for the bridge foundation refurbishments being a matter of project financial consideration, it was finally decided by TfGM that the solution would be that the new Manchester Metrolink where it passed over Wellington Bridge would be in the form of a single-track, bi-directionally signalled, that the existing bridge decking would support. It was stated that such a solution would not impact upon the operation performance of the new Manchester Metrolink system, which would see double trackwork reintroduced on the line from Shaw to Rochdale, which had been reduced to single track heavy rail operation for many years before the line closure for conversion.

That bridge is on Drake Street, the town centre section which has not opened yet.

Bit of confusion here, by Wellington bridge I presume you mean the bridge at the bottom of Drake St., which the river Roch flows under by the Wellington Hotel. The bridge built by the L&Y carries the Calder Valley main line over Oldham Rd., about half a mile from Rochdale town centre, which is also used by Metrolink.
 

edwin_m

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By coincidence I was reading up on Wellington Bridge this week. It was apparently built to carry a tramway and other bridges were later built up to both sides of it so that the River Roch is underground for several hundred metres. However the alignment of Metrolink means that it goes over parts of all three bridges, all of which have been investigated and found to be structurally suitable. Depth above the structure is limited but the road has been raised and part of the reason for the short single line was to avoid having to put motorised points in the area where there is not enough depth for the motors.
 

185143

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It's not useless
This however, is not the biggest barrier to using this interchange. There are no through tickets priced as if you can change there, which makes them all a rip-off, unless you know how to manipulate the system.
I'm guessing that you do know how to manipulate the system!
 

WatcherZero

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By coincidence I was reading up on Wellington Bridge this week. It was apparently built to carry a tramway and other bridges were later built up to both sides of it so that the River Roch is underground for several hundred metres. However the alignment of Metrolink means that it goes over parts of all three bridges, all of which have been investigated and found to be structurally suitable. Depth above the structure is limited but the road has been raised and part of the reason for the short single line was to avoid having to put motorised points in the area where there is not enough depth for the motors.

The TfGM committee was told that the bridge would have to be strengthened to carry two tracks (trams being a lot heavier now than they were 80 years ago!) and that it could be done but would have delayed the town centre opening by 3 months so they decided to just single track it to keep on schedule, I think they had one track on one bridge which was strong enough but the second track which strayed onto a second bridge required strengthening. Part of the issue in these old bridges is the deck is structural if you shave too much off the depth of the carriageway you have to put in replacement strengthening.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The TfGM committee was told that the bridge would have to be strengthened to carry two tracks (trams being a lot heavier now than they were 80 years ago!) and that it could be done but would have delayed the town centre opening by 3 months so they decided to just single track it to keep on schedule.

With the Rochdale town centre reopening not scheduled until 2014, surely there would have been time to perform the required upgrading to the bridge from the date that a decision could have been made until the 2014 opening date.

I have found a document dated 8th July 2011 with regard to the matter of the said bridge from the Capital Projects and Policy Committee of Transport for Greater Manchester Committee which states three alternatives with finance and schedule implications:-

1)...Strengthen bridge deck
Cost implications... £1.1 million
Schedule implications...20 weeks

2)...Reconstruct the bridge
Cost impications... £1.3 million
Schedule implications...16 weeks

3)...Single track two-way signalling
Cost implications...NIL
Schedule implications...NIL

Hardly surprising that they reached the decision which they did, based upon the above.
 

HSTEd

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I have been led to understand that an Oxford Road corridor street tramway was considered seriously at some point prior to the failed referendum on congestion charging to pay for the "big bang". (Which happened soon after I arrived in Manchester - I voted yes obviously :) ).

Does anyone know if there any documentation anywhere relating to the feasibility of such a project that would shed light on how some of the engineering problems could be overcome?
 

edwin_m

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I looked at a very high level at an Oxford Road and Kingsway Metrolink route for a strategy in 2001, the aim being to close some of the intermediate stations to increase rail capacity to the Airport (to howls of protest no doubt). There were no details and certainly no drawings at the time as it was no more than a quick assessment. As far as I remember the principal engineering difficulty was the lack of an easy route between the city centre and the north end of Kingsway. I'm not aware of anything more being done on this idea but it may have been.

On a quick search the GM Strategic Rail Study is mentioned on the Internet but no longer appears to be online.
 
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So this is still happening. I can understand slow running towards Rochdale as there can only be one tram between Newbold and Rochdale station at any one time. When Rochdale town centre opens will this slow running end?

It was awful , you could have walked quicker to be honest.

Im looking forward to the tram going to Ashton, did I hear TfM are looking into taking the tram to Stockport ?
 
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