Cycles - Well done Southern!

[DynamicSpirit]

Last Thursday I was travelling from New Cross Gate to Crawley with my bicycle. I've not often travelled with Southern and this is the first time I've ever needed to take my cycle with me on Southern.

I was a bit puzzled when I tried to get on and the guard told me to move to the red-painted doors. But I was absolutely delighted when I got on the train as directed and found a large space next to the doors, complete with a rail and straps to secure the bike. It meant I could sit in comfort as a normal passenger (ie. didn't have to stand holding the bike, or get up to move the bike away from the doors every time we got to a station) but could also remain in full view of it - so no worries about security. And I could very easily get to it once I needed to get off the train. (I noticed the straps were designed to be extremely easy to release - good thinking).

While I wouldn't say it was a perfect solution (the obvious problem being the restricted capacity for bikes if you are only allowed to leave them in the designated area. Also the straps could have done with being a little longer), it's a far better arrangement for taking bikes on trains than I've ever seen anywhere else. I especially appreciated the way it meant I could take my bike but still feel like and have the same standards of comfort as I would have done without the bike.

Definitely one thing Southern have got right in my view!

 

[Danny Dire]

Good news

 

[The Ham]

SWT's 450's have a similar set up, although the cycles block tip up seats, so if the train is busy (and not covered by their cycle ban) these can be occupied. The other down sides to the SWT's set up is that the area is next to the loo (not always a good thing) and that there are only 8 normal seats in the same area (so the 4 tip up seats make up 50% of the seating in the area!). However, on the plus side, it is possible to get four cycles there without impacting on the width of the walkway through (although the signs say two).

Overall not too bad.

 

[jopsuk]

It's the same on GA 379s and 317/6s. And on most turbostars. In fact, basically most modern units. Not something unique to Soutern by a long shot.

One problem is that often the same area is the designated wheelchair space. So what happens if there's already cycles in there when someone in a wheelchair boards? Creates instant conflict between them, where neither party wishes conflict.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

Same with Southeastern's 375s. There is a place to strap in a bicycle on each PTOSL coach - adjacent to the accessible toilet.

The sister 376s offer a similar facility on each DMOS (end) coach, where the fold-up seating is. It seems to be a universal feature of the Electrostars, with the exception of London Overground. A mistake in my books, because it could be useful for cyclists during the off-peak periods.

This kind of facility seems to be provided by most newer units that were introduced around the early 2000's. I don't know about SWT's 450s personally, but I know that the 444s have dedicated bicycle storage for up to three bicycles.

 

[gage75]

yes very useful and conveniant, IIRC on the 450's there is one next to the lavatory also similar on the 458/0's

 

[maniacmartin]

I seem to recall that SWT's have a problem though, in that the Passcom button is behind them. I had to constantly rearrange my bicycle as it kept slipping and nearly activated it.

 

[PeterY]

Do Southern restrict the number of bikes on thier trains?

I have got on a Southern service at Milton Keynes to Watford and like London Midland trains rested my bike against the doors. Knowing which side the doors open is a bonus. (Tring)

 

[theageofthetra]

I recently worked in possibly the most bike friendly country in the world. The Netherlands. Not only are bikes actively discouraged from being taken on trains, the Neders do what any sane country would do an ride an old clunker to their departure station. Then pick up their other old clunker at their arrival station. Both bikes are worth nothing so don't get stolen and has worked well for 60+ years. Why are the British obsessed with taking £1000 + bikes on public transport, complaining when they can't be accommodated and then worry that they will get stolen?

 

[jon0844]

Same in Sweden, where nobody would bother to steal a bike that has probably been handed down for generations!

In the UK, we seem to like bright bikes that shout out 'steal me!'

 

[theageofthetra]

Have travelled extensively in Scandanvia too and I agree you rarely see bikes on public transport. Its that good old British media induced obsession with propery ownership rather than simple practicalites of getting from A to B.

 

[jon0844]

We have many cyclists who are extremely rude and arrogant, giving rail staff loads of abuse and blocking train doorways and aisles - all because they believe they should be able to take their bikes anywhere and at any time.

Of course it isn't all of them, but we seem to have a level of arrogance and self entitlement that isn't found elsewhere.

 

[sarahj]

Its the British way. We buy the most expensive bikes with 20 speeds, disc brakes, tyres for off roading, suspension, then wait 15 mins for a train to take us one station along a route thats flat, sometimes where you can see your destination station from the station you are leaving.

Two very popular journeys for bikes on southern:

West Worthing to Durrington (flat and so so close)
Hampden Park to Eastbourne

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I recently worked in possibly the most bike friendly country in the world. The Netherlands. Not only are bikes actively discouraged from being taken on trains, the Neders do what any sane country would do an ride an old clunker to their departure station. Then pick up their other old clunker at their arrival station. Both bikes are worth nothing so don't get stolen and has worked well for 60+ years. Why are the British obsessed with taking £1000 + bikes on public transport, complaining when they can't be accommodated and then worry that they will get stolen?

Personally, in principle I'd be very happy to have the option to do that. And I can see that leaving bikes at the station could make for more sensible use of available facilities than taking it on the train.

But even aside from the infrastructure required to allow bike hire from any station, I'm not sure I'd really fancy having to ride an 'old clunker' at my destination. I can see it working if you're only planning to ride half a mile at your destination but surely for any reasonable distance you're going to want a bike of similar quality to your own one?

Not sure if it's relevant too that the Netherlands are somewhat flatter than the UK, which I suspect may mean it's easier to ride 'old clunker' bikes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We have many cyclists who are extremely rude and arrogant, giving rail staff loads of abuse and blocking train doorways and aisles - all because they believe they should be able to take their bikes anywhere and at any time.

Of course it isn't all of them, but we seem to have a level of arrogance and self entitlement that isn't found elsewhere.

*sigh*. There's so much complaining on railforums (and yes I know I contribute to that as much as anyone).

So when I see something that a rail company has clearly done right and start a thread to praise them for it, thinking it'll be nice to have a thread drawing attention to something that's nice for a change. And look what happens....

 

[jopsuk]

I recently worked in possibly the most bike friendly country in the world. The Netherlands. Not only are bikes actively discouraged from being taken on trains, the Neders do what any sane country would do an ride an old clunker to their departure station. Then pick up their other old clunker at their arrival station. Both bikes are worth nothing so don't get stolen and has worked well for 60+ years.

Think the biggest station cycle park in NL is now at 20,000 spaces, and still not big enough. We have some stations with ~1000 spaces. Cambridge has 800 with 1200 bikes parked, and is getting a nearly 3000 space multistory bike park.

THere are people who do what you describe already though. That's why there's such demand for cycle parking at London terminals!

 

[jon0844]

*sigh*. There's so much complaining on railforums (and yes I know I contribute to that as much as anyone).

So when I see something that a rail company has clearly done right and start a thread to praise them for it, thinking it'll be nice to have a thread drawing attention to something that's nice for a change. And look what happens....

I wasn't moaning about what some TOCs are doing, but there clearly aren't enough spaces for everyone to take their bike on the train.

Most cyclists are courteous and look after their bikes, but many are arrogant (hence my moans about the quality of cycling in and around London) and these people are a PITA. And I regularly see their confrontations with staff, including pretty nasty threats that I am sure could get them arrested if a police officer was nearby (although I bet they'd shut up then).

At Hatfield, people can take bikes on trains into London at 5pm but not away from London (until 7pm or so). So what people do is come through the gates and tell staff they're going to London, then start to cross the bridge.

Staff can shout at them, and get sworn at in return, but seem to do little about it. They must assume they'll be caught on the train or at their destination, or else they feel sufficiently threatened to turn a blind eye - which probably just sends out the message that it's okay (isn't that a common trend in the railway industry when it comes to revenue issues too?!).

Another cyclist, going into London, was shaking his head and said to others around him that he really didn't need people like that as it tars everyone with the same brush. You could tell the poor man, who was able to take his bike to London going against the flow, knew that half the platform would now think he was also taking his bike on a train without permission.

It's great to have an area for bikes, and perhaps introduce reservations for them so you won't miss out one day, but as mentioned above - bar folding bikes valid at all times - the best solution is to have a bike at either end for regular commutes and keep them off the trains altogether.

 

[Sheepy1209]

Have travelled extensively in Scandanvia too and I agree you rarely see bikes on public transport. Its that good old British media induced obsession with propery ownership rather than simple practicalites of getting from A to B.

I just think it's a legacy of the old days when trains had luggage vans / guards vans and bikes were always carried for free - it's a long-standing expectation that was never dealt with properly 30+ years ago when slam-door stack began to be replaced while at the same time cycling was at its lowest popularity.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to make a small charge in exchange for dedicated, sufficient fit-for-purpose cycle accommodation - but we don't have the stock to do that. If only cycling had been popular back then, maybe the issue would have been dealt with.


Also - in this country cycling is still seen by many as a sport, rather than a mode of transport.

 

[stut]

I recently worked in possibly the most bike friendly country in the world. The Netherlands. Not only are bikes actively discouraged from being taken on trains, the Neders do what any sane country would do an ride an old clunker to their departure station.

This is becoming increasingly popular here. Look at the ever-growing, massive bike racks at the London termini. I only hope they can keep up with the demand - I've used the multi-storey bike parks in the Netherlands, so I know it certainly can be done!

Of course, if you don't work regularly at the same office, it's not always quite so simple.

But this is what I do - in fact, I bought a second-hand bike from the Netherlands and brought it back here.

Where I do appreciate being able to take my bike on the train is for leisure, or where I want to use my bike in a particular place (e.g. Cambridge, where the station is a fair distance from the centre). It's great to be able to head to the coast, or up to Rutland Water, or wherever.

(And actually, my local TOC, FCC, are particularly accommodating with bikes. I can only hope the inconsiderate minority don't ruin it for the rest of us!)

Scandinavia varies: I do regularly take my bike on the train in Denmark - again, if I fancy cycling somewhere further out of town. While you need to pay for DSB trains, the Copenhagen commuter trains are free for bikes - and they have massive storage areas (a whole carriage dedicated to it on some routes). Further out, and you can easily add a bike to your ticket price on a Rejsekort smart card. Lots of commuters do this - but they do like to mix their clunkers and their smart, new, singlespeeds in Copenhagen...

I have also regularly used the trains in the Netherlands with a bike - again, pretty easy outside of rush hours - you just need to put a day ticket on your OV-Chipkaart. Always plenty space, but again, it's only really used for leisure.

France is another good one. Lots of space on the new double-decker TER units, and the old Corails have a half-carriage of bike hooks. Well used in the provincial cities, IME.

 

[The Ham]

I just think it's a legacy of the old days when trains had luggage vans / guards vans and bikes were always carried for free - it's a long-standing expectation that was never dealt with properly 30+ years ago when slam-door stack began to be replaced while at the same time cycling was at its lowest popularity.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to make a small charge in exchange for dedicated, sufficient fit-for-purpose cycle accommodation - but we don't have the stock to do that. If only cycling had been popular back then, maybe the issue would have been dealt with.

Quite, when SWT's brought in their cycle ban on peak hour services they didn't increase the number of cycle parking spaces, in fact there is a station local to me that hasn't seen an increase in the number of cycle spaces since at least the mid 90's (other than 2 cycle lockers which are next to useless given the way they are operated), yet the cycle bays are full and have been for all that time.

If there had been a big build of cycle stands in the 90's then not so many people would have wanted to take their bike on the trains.

 

[jon0844]

Hatfield is getting two tier cycle parking.

 

[tsr]

Redhill Station is, as I speak, having Brompton Docks installed, with folding bikes that you can hire for as long as you like, take on a train, cycle from the station with, etc. A good idea if it's well implemented and the bikes are able to be used easily (which I understand they will be). I understand Reigate Station is another location being looked at - the local politicians are very much in favour of it all, too, so I think that helps in a sense (well...! Boris helped in London, to some extent).

So you can either pick one up and ride from the station, or, if you are in a situation like I am and don't have a folding bike (I have a normal-size mountain bike which is not very train-friendly), you can pick one up and take it to London (so no Boris Bike fees or hunting for docking stations). You can also return them to any free docking point across the country, or so I'm told.

There is a steady increase in these racks. Would members say they're a good way forward? I haven't read much, if anything, about them on here. Maybe I've missed it, or have forgotten it.

Of course, extra cycle parking for "private" bikes is also being installed at Redhill and other Southern stations. Some of the double-decker racks are prone to injuring people, though, according to some.

 

[PeterY]

I've never really encountered many problems taking my bike on LM trains but it's mostly weekends between anywhere Watford and Northampton. Occasionly I use TFL between Watford and Uxbridge again no problems.

Before I board a train I always check that there isn't already a bike by the door I want to board. Sometimes others have got on after me and tried to stand two bikes by the same door. Now that is a pain, along with double buggies and giant wheelie suitcases.

Yes a lot could have been done in the past for cyclists wishing to take their machines with them.

Chaining/leaving a bike even with an expensive lock at Watford Junction ...no way. It's not unheard of, for gangs with bolt cutters to visit stations. I know it's happened at Hemel Hempstead several times in the past.

 

[maniacmartin]

I have learnt the hard way to never leave a bicycle at a station, even if its worth little. Even if its not stolen, it'll get damaged.

 

[theageofthetra]

There was a fantastic folding bike design by SAAB years ago where the lower tube was a cable that became a cycle lock. If you cut it to steal it then the bike would collapse! I think someone resurected the design because I saw one near Charing Cross a month ago.

 

[bairy]

Definitely one thing Southern have got right in my view!

Write to them and let them know. I don't imagine they get a whole lot of praise mail and it'll encourage them that the system is worth keeping/expanding.

 

[jon0844]

I have learnt the hard way to never leave a bicycle at a station, even if its worth little. Even if its not stolen, it'll get damaged.

Yup. First and only time I cycled to Hatfield station and left it there for the day, it was gone when I got back!

 

[Mojo]

The most annoying of all is people who take their bikes on the train and leave it in the doorway or the aisle rather than the designated cycle space. Aside from the Great Western Turbos [or do they have space now?] and Underground stock, what other units don't have somewhere for bikes to go?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Write to them and let them know. I don't imagine they get a whole lot of praise mail and it'll encourage them that the system is worth keeping/expanding.

Good point, I'll try and do that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The most annoying of all is people who take their bikes on the train and leave it in the doorway or the aisle rather than the designated cycle space. Aside from the Great Western Turbos [or do they have space now?] and Underground stock, what other units don't have somewhere for bikes to go?

SouthEastern metro trains don't, nor do the SWT stock that's used on the suburban line through Wimbledon.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wasn't moaning about what some TOCs are doing, but there clearly aren't enough spaces for everyone to take their bike on the train.

True but you were complaining, even if it wasn't about TOCs. And I also couldn't see an obvious post that your comments were in reply to either.

(Not that I don't agree with what you said - on the whole, I do).

 

[kieron]

The most annoying of all is people who take their bikes on the train and leave it in the doorway or the aisle rather than the designated cycle space. Aside from the Great Western Turbos [or do they have space now?] and Underground stock, what other units don't have somewhere for bikes to go?

Lots of trains have a cycle area, but it's only "somewhere for bikes to go" until it gets full of bikes or pushchairs or suitcases or whatever.

A problem with a bike on a train is that, if your storage location of choice isn't available, you can't take a bike to the next one along.

 

[jon0844]

Lots of trains have a cycle area, but it's only "somewhere for bikes to go" until it gets full of bikes or pushchairs or suitcases or whatever.

A problem with a bike on a train is that, if your storage location of choice isn't available, you can't take a bike to the next one along.

If an area for bikes is also for wheelchairs, then it's certainly not set up very well. A wheelchair would clearly get priority (although that's not to say that a wheelchair user might not accept the area is full and wait for another train, or just stay in the vestibule area) and, as I believe someone said already, it's a bit unfair to create some conflict about who should be there - when a bike user can't necessarily move and might have to come off the train.

And buggy owners can be far worse, refusing to move at all with me having witnessed some that class their buggy as the same as a wheelchair and start saying things like 'my baby is asleep, so what the **** do you expect me to do - take him out and fold it?' etc.

I'd say that a train should have a dedicated area for a bike or two, perhaps reservable, and with folding seats for when not used (and those seats clearly marked as it being necessary to vacate for a bike). Then the standard wheelchair area, which can also be used by buggies - but with the same rule and fold down seats for when not used by a wheelchair or buggy.

(And yes, there's another moan in there!!)