Crewe versus Stoke - who will win?

[The Planner]

Would still put money on Crewe getting the station....

 

[HSTEd]

Manchester Airport High Speed station will be connected to the tram system and thus have superior access to significant parts of Manchester than the city centre station.

If the entire Airport loop gets built you could even offer free transfers between the main and high speed stations.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Manchester Airport High Speed station will be connected to the tram system and thus have superior access to significant parts of Manchester than the city centre station.

If the entire Airport loop gets built you could even offer free transfers between the main and high speed stations.

I wonder what type of trams will be running on the Manchester Metrolink system in those far-distant future days when the HS2 project is operational in the Manchester area.

 

[HowardGWR]

I wonder what type of trams will be running on the Manchester Metrolink system in those far-distant future days when the HS2 project is operational in the Manchester area.

I wonder about the route. The one to the airport, being built, is a 'round the houses' affair that I would imagine is more useful to airport workers living in the suburbs, a bit like Heathrow Connect or the Piccadilly tube line.

 

[edwin_m]

I wonder what type of trams will be running on the Manchester Metrolink system in those far-distant future days when the HS2 project is operational in the Manchester area.

I'm sure the intention is for the M5000s to last longer than the T68s, in which case they should still be around in 2032.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wonder about the route. The one to the airport, being built, is a 'round the houses' affair that I would imagine is more useful to airport workers living in the suburbs, a bit like Heathrow Connect or the Piccadilly tube line.

I agree. I saw some figures somewhere which suggested the tram would be quicker from the western edge of the city centre, but I'm not sure I buy it.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Well Paul, you can read the report as well as anyone. It airily infers that the line to Manchester will be converted to GC+ gauge, and become the main route northwards, without defining any solutions to such problems or where the branch occurs, IINM. The very thing that HS2 sets out not to do! All seems a bit half-baked and naive to me.

All you people are lucky. Us poor residents of Stoke have to put up with this drivel from our councillors and officers day in, day out!

All talk, no delivery.

We need to make savings, lets spend £60m on new offices for ourselves. We can sell assets to pay for it. Oh look, few assets to sell and those that we have no-one wants to buy. Too much debt we need to make savings.... and on it goes, round and round.

They can't even sell houses for £1 - see the report on BBC news website for the Midlands today.

Rant over.

 

[pablo]

BB; I feel for you. How do you do summat about it?

Crewe is a dead cert. It has six radial routes presently and yet HS2 Captiives won't stop there! Seems like Stoke councillors and HS2 Ltd have something in common.

Think back why it was built in the middle of fields originally.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

BB; I feel for you. How do you do summat about it?

Crewe is a dead cert. It has six radial routes presently and yet HS2 Captiives won't stop there! Seems like Stoke councillors and HS2 Ltd have something in common.

Think back why it was built in the middle of fields originally.

In answer to the first point, revolution tomorrow!

Crewe is the obvious location for a north midlands / south north west regional station. Perhaps even as an alternative to Manchester Airport?

In my opinion it should have HS2 served platforms rather than being a branch off the new line - unless there is an ability to weave onto HS2 south and north of the present station without too much time penalty. Otherwise, if HS2 gets extended north to Scotland in some form, the whole region loses out because, as per the current WCML timetable, expresses to Scotland won't stop at Crewe.

Ideally, HS2 would serve London, then Crewe, then Preston, then Glasgow. Picks up regional feeder services at those interchange points or classic compatible services join en-route. It's a personal opinion but I don't see the point in stopping at Old Oak Common in addition to Euston. Ditto Manchester Picadilly and the airport, ditto Birmingham and its airport. Too many intermediate stops being introduced.

Stoke Council should be more concerned about what rail services it will have once HS2 opens and be lobbying hard to get some decent promises from government / HS2. Birmingham to Manchester traffic will be on the new line. London to Manchester traffic will be on the new line. Not much left to serve Stoke. Gone will be the twice an hour, 90 minute, service to London.

 

[po8crg]

BB; I feel for you. How do you do summat about it?

Honest answer if you live in Stoke: join the Labour Party. Stand for the GMC (General Management Committee) and then see if you can either lean on the councillors or get yourself on the council.

Stoke is never going to be anything other than Labour, and ordinary people are never going to be council officers, but you might be able to get into a position to choose a better Chief Executive.

 

[NotATrainspott]

In answer to the first point, revolution tomorrow!

Crewe is the obvious location for a north midlands / south north west regional station. Perhaps even as an alternative to Manchester Airport?

In my opinion it should have HS2 served platforms rather than being a branch off the new line - unless there is an ability to weave onto HS2 south and north of the present station without too much time penalty. Otherwise, if HS2 gets extended north to Scotland in some form, the whole region loses out because, as per the current WCML timetable, expresses to Scotland won't stop at Crewe.

Ideally, HS2 would serve London, then Crewe, then Preston, then Glasgow. Picks up regional feeder services at those interchange points or classic compatible services join en-route. It's a personal opinion but I don't see the point in stopping at Old Oak Common in addition to Euston. Ditto Manchester Picadilly and the airport, ditto Birmingham and its airport. Too many intermediate stops being introduced.

Stoke Council should be more concerned about what rail services it will have once HS2 opens and be lobbying hard to get some decent promises from government / HS2. Birmingham to Manchester traffic will be on the new line. London to Manchester traffic will be on the new line. Not much left to serve Stoke. Gone will be the twice an hour, 90 minute, service to London.

If the suggestion of moving Crewe station further south is still on the cards it would necessitate a Captive station there as well. All the stations on HS2 so far, other than Toton, are complicated station rebuilds or are on viaduct or in a box so are rather expensive. If they move the classic Crewe station further south the cost of adding two surface 400m platforms on a loop on HS2 isn't going to be that high. It would theoretically also allow services to split there to serve both a classic and a captive line route beyond Crewe, whereas the current plans would only allow Crewe to split two classic-compatibles which then cannot rejoin the main line.

The plans for Manchester Airport are part-funded by the airport company, IIRC, and I don't imagine them being dropped especially as the airport is ripe for further expansion caused by attracting passengers from the south and then the north once HS2 is extended further.

I can't see many of the Scotland services stopping at a Crewe HS2 station until the route is extended though as there are limited journey time savings already and this would erode them even more. The only train that would likely stop as per the Phase 2 timetable is the hourly Birmingham-Scotland service.

Intermediate stops aren't as much a problem at the ends of the route because the trains have to slow down there to go into the cities. Old Oak Common is a mandatory stop for every London HS2 train because they want passengers to change onto Crossrail 1 for Heathrow, the centre of London and for Stratford/Canary Wharf. Additional connections to the Overground and to the Great Western network are also important here. 1/3rd of the London passengers are expected to get on/off there, so it's not going to be underused.

How easy would it be to upgrade the Crewe-Stoke line? An efficient, fast shuttle service would do something to mitigate the effects of removing fast services from Stoke while also providing extra connections.

 

[edwin_m]

I believe the double trackbed remains on the single line section between Alsager and Crewe and with fewer fast services running through Stoke a shuttle to Crewe would probably be feasible.

However of the six routes serving Crewe this one is by some way the most difficult to divert into any new station constructed further south! Some maintenance sheds (part of LNWR I think) have been built on the former southwards curve.

 

[thenorthern]

This may seem a long shot but could they do what they have done with the East Midlands and build one in the Audley area and call it something like Stoke-on-Trent and Crewe or North Staffordshire Parkway?

 

[NotATrainspott]

This may seem a long shot but could they do what they have done with the East Midlands and build one in the Audley area and call it something like Stoke-on-Trent and Crewe or North Staffordshire Parkway?

Then HS2 would serve neither one particularly well. Toton is the least unsuitable location for Derby/Nottingham because it's on an existing mainline rail corridor and because its location doesn't affect onward services at all. A parkway station between Stoke and Crewe would make it difficult for classic-compatibles to continue to Liverpool and other locations past Crewe while not really making HS2 that much more accessible to the people of Stoke.

As luck would have it, a station at Junction 16 on the M6 (between Stoke and Crewe, on a different route alignment than what was finally chosen) was looked at by MSG for the West Midlands - Manchester route engineering report. It would be a car-only interchange station, which would massively annoy the environmental crowd and is something that this scheme isn't meant to represent.

---

HS2 phase two engineering options report West Midlands to Manchester part 2 [PDF Page 103, document page 261]

If they're going to resite Crewe then it would actually end up in Chorlton, well beyond what the station resiting people had anticipated pre-HS2. The inexact position of the site in this map is where the through HS2 route is already just beyond the tunnel portals.

 

[MarkyT]

The existing station at Crewe can be fairly easily upgraded and modernised to suit new twin coupled classic compatible HS2 services. Some of the existing and abandoned platforms are already up to 400m long and fairly straight and level. Hence double classic compatible HS sets could split and join in a dedicated pair of these long platforms every half hour to deliver a 200m train to Runcorn and Liverpool along one branch, and Warrington, Wigan, Preston and Blackpool alternating with Lancaster along the other, using only 2 paths an hour in each direction along HS2 itself.

It would be fairly easy to make the link into Crewe from the south 'captive compatible' for terminating trains only as well, but a full conversion of the complex junctions north of the station to the larger loading gauge required in order to get back back onto the High speed line at the north end would be expensive and unjustified, given that the Manchester captive trains would be unlikely to stop at Crewe as well as any proposed station near Manchester airport. That's no reason to place the HS2 station a number of miles out of Crewe however which smacks of an renewed attempt to leverage land development opportunities in that vicinity rather than any integrated transport objective for Crewe, Chesire and the broader region for which the existing station site is excellent. Any proposal to take HS2 calls out of the existing major junction station area could destroy potential interchange traffic, something that elsewhere has been specifically encouraged and designed for at the other major new HS2 hubs such as Totton and Meadowhall and which is already very well catered for at Crewe.

The railway yards to the south could provide sufficient room for a new access road from the A500 alongside the railway corridor into the traditional station and town centre from the south of the town. That could form a development spine without destroying the transport interchange. A hi tech local transit link could follow that corridor to connect the station and town with such new developments to the south and possibly satellite parking if that became a problem in the immediate station surroundings.

 

[The Planner]

However of the six routes serving Crewe this one is by some way the most difficult to divert into any new station constructed further south! Some maintenance sheds (part of LNWR I think) have been built on the former southwards curve.

New alignment following the A500 from about Stowford towards Basford Hall and the new HS2 station. Not sure HS2 have thought about where Basford Hall terminal goes and the old Crewe station would definitely go as the building limits the speed on what is there now.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The existing station at Crewe can be fairly easily upgraded and modernised to suit new twin coupled classic compatible HS2 services. Some of the existing and abandoned platforms are already up to 400m long and fairly straight and level. Hence double classic compatible HS sets could split and join in a dedicated pair of these long platforms every half hour to deliver a 200m train to Runcorn and Liverpool along one branch, and Warrington, Wigan, Preston and Blackpool alternating with Lancaster along the other, using only 2 paths an hour in each direction along HS2 itself.

It would be fairly easy to make the link into Crewe from the south 'captive compatible' for terminating trains only as well, but a full conversion of the complex junctions north of the station to the larger loading gauge required in order to get back back onto the High speed line at the north end would be expensive and unjustified, given that the Manchester captive trains would be unlikely to stop at Crewe as well as any proposed station near Manchester airport. That's no reason to place the HS2 station a number of miles out of Crewe however which smacks of an renewed attempt to leverage land development opportunities in that vicinity rather than any integrated transport objective for Crewe, Chesire and the broader region for which the existing station site is excellent. Any proposal to take HS2 calls out of the existing major junction station area could destroy potential interchange traffic, something that elsewhere has been specifically encouraged and designed for at the other major new HS2 hubs such as Totton and Meadowhall and which is already very well catered for at Crewe.

The railway yards to the south could provide sufficient room for a new access road from the A500 alongside the railway corridor into the traditional station and town centre from the south of the town. That could form a development spine without destroying the transport interchange. A hi tech local transit link could follow that corridor to connect the station and town with such new developments to the south and possibly satellite parking if that became a problem in the immediate station surroundings.

The idea to move Crewe station isn't part of HS2 and it pre-dates any government initiative for high-speed rail. If moving the station is still a possibility, it would be madness to move it somewhere that HS2 then cannot stop there as well if the need arises. A relocated Crewe station would be where all the current heavy rail services stop so it wouldn't make much sense for HS2 compatibles to continue to run into the old station, which would become a much smaller stop served mostly by local and 'metro' services. Part of the reason moving the station was mooted is that it isn't in the most convenient of places to start with for passengers from Crewe itself. At the same time, it's close enough that a light rail or otherwise dedicated transport service from the station isn't justified. The relocated station would likely have four platforms on the WCML and two 400m platforms on HS2, which would be enough for the number of services which would stop there.

 

[pablo]

I think things may have moved on a bit...
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...o-high-speed-rail-city-a-vision-for-crewe.pdf

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/from-rail-town-to-high-speed-rail-city-a-vision-for-crewe

 

[NotATrainspott]

I think things may have moved on a bit...
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...o-high-speed-rail-city-a-vision-for-crewe.pdf

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/from-rail-town-to-high-speed-rail-city-a-vision-for-crewe

Completely rebuilding the station on the current site has the disadvantage of heavily disrupting the main hub of the entire WCML. Building their station idea a short distance down the line, with a suitable metro system to connect it to the centre of Crewe, would have much of the same benefit at much reduced monetary and disruption cost.

 

[MarkyT]

The idea to move Crewe station isn't part of HS2 and it pre-dates any government initiative for high-speed rail. If moving the

station is still a possibility, it would be madness to move it somewhere that HS2 then cannot stop there as well if the need arises. A relocated Crewe

station would be where all the current heavy rail services stop so it wouldn't make much sense for HS2 compatibles to continue to run into the old station
. . . Part of the reason moving the station was mooted is that it isn't in the most convenient of places to start with for passengers from Crewe itself. At the same time, it's close enough that a light rail or otherwise dedicated transport service from the station isn't justified.

I agree with that in principle, however the town centre is actually about 1km north of the existing station, certainly not south of it. A possible site for a central station might be at the A532, Earle Street overbridge, close to the main library, courts, market hall and gateway to the pedestrianised shopping area. The problem with this is it is only on the WCML express route towards Winsford, not easily served by many existing local and regional trains without significant new connecting infrastructure to both Chester and Wilmslow routes around the north of the town, although possibly a suitable site for a captive HS2 station. Any such site so close to the existing station however, whether north or south thereof, would need long decelleration/acceleration loops either end for offline platforms, extending through the planned tunnels under Crewe and thus very expensive, although not so great a cost as additional underground platfrom tunnels under the existing station.

The existing station is a good compromise site for a Classic Compatible hub, facilitating split portion HS service to a wide variety of destinations, and whilst not particularly central to Crewe itself nevertheless being an established well known site providing easy interchange around the region with the various through services running there today. If some sort of people mover system was justified to link new south of town developments to the modernised station, that might be extended through to the town centre and bus station fairly inexpensively although I agree it would be difficult to justify as a stand alone system.

 

[6Gman]

Part of the reason moving the station was mooted is that it isn't in the most convenient of places to start with for passengers from Crewe itself.

This is true, BUT it's a d**n sight more convenient than the proposed station in Basford!

The current station is within walking distance of the University, the major industrial estate and the south side of Crewe. I would estimate there are c.8,000 people within a 15/20 minute walk of the current Crewe station - c.200 within a 15/20 minute walk of the new station at Basford!

Because the existing station sits on the A534 it also sits on several long-established bus routes (Betley, Keele, Newcastle, Alsager, Hanley, Sandbach, Congleton). The Basford site would need new bus routes - and experience suggests such routes are rarely sustainable.

There is much wrong with Crewe station - but the fact that it's in Crewe is a major advantage!

 

[edwin_m]

I would guess parts of the Crewe station are listed - probably the parts that restrict the speed on the main lines and would be very difficult to demolish if they went out of use.

 

[eps200]

The whole western island is out of use, the way to do the work would be to reactivate it which need not be disruptive as it's only used for excess capacity.

Once that's up and running close the middle island and rig it up as needed for CCs to split and join..

Do wonder if the south facing bay on the west island can be captive cleared or if that would have any utility in the event of say a closure further up the line.

 

[HowardGWR]

The whole western island is out of use, the way to do the work would be to reactivate it which need not be disruptive as it's only used for excess capacity.

Once that's up and running close the middle island and rig it up as needed for CCs to split and join..

Do wonder if the south facing bay on the west island can be captive cleared or if that would have any utility in the event of say a closure further up the line.

I expect some will know this, but listing does not prevent alteration. One simply needs to prove one has not needlessly destroyed a listed feature in one's application for listed consent. Clearly that is not always easy.

 

[6Gman]

I expect some will know this, but listing does not prevent alteration. One simply needs to prove one has not needlessly destroyed a listed feature in one's application for listed consent. Clearly that is not always easy.

I'm pretty sure that no part of Crewe station is listed.

 

[eps200]

I expect some will know this, but listing does not prevent alteration. One simply needs to prove one has not needlessly destroyed a listed feature in one's application for listed consent. Clearly that is not always easy.

Not sure why that would even be an issue the platforms are large enough there are two wide bridges with lifts, has spacious waiting rooms. The roof is a jumble like Chester but hasn't a load of it just come down?

The needed work is all to the tracks and the installation of a few new departure boards that account for portion working.

 

[WatcherZero]

Chief Exec of HS2 has hinted they would pursue the Crewe option and not the Stoke option.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Chief Exec of HS2 has hinted they would pursue the Crewe option and not the Stoke option.

THE boss of HS2 has not ruled out Stoke-on-Trent's bid for a station, but admits the city is likely to lose out in favour of neighbouring Crewe.

Alison Munro, chief executive of the quango, said she would be reviewing the Potteries' case for an HS2 hub following the end of a consultation this month.

But she also revealed that the Cheshire option was seen as 'preferable'.

She said: "Many cities would like to be served by HS2, but obviously we can't have too many stops or else it ceases to be a high-speed line.

"We looked at where we could put another stop on the route from Birmingham to Manchester.

"We did look at options around Stoke-on-Trent but our view was that it was preferable to have a station at Crewe.

"But Stoke-on-Trent isn't being ruled out. We have just completed a consultation and Stoke-on-Trent's views have been submitted."

Stoke-on-Trent City Council put forward the economic case for a hub stop between Stoke railway station and Etruria Valley last month.

Under the authority's plans, the existing West Coast Mainline north of Stone would be upgraded to carry high speed trains at up to 142mph slashing journey times to the capital by 55 minutes.

It would involve completely changing the HS2 route between Birmingham and Manchester, which currently bypasses Stoke-on-Trent.

The council says this will be ready seven years earlier and cost £5 billion less than building an entirely new line through the Staffordshire and Cheshire countryside, as is currently proposed by HS2 Ltd.

Council leader Mohammed Pervez said: "This will make Stoke-on-Trent a core city. The amount of growth that would happen would be unimaginable and the amount of contribution that an area like Stoke-on-Trent and Staffordshire can make to the overall economy of the UK would be huge."

But Michael Jones, leader of Cheshire East Council, is urging the Government to favour Crewe's bid.

He said: "At the end of the day, the real deal is in Crewe."

The Secretary of State will make a decision on plans for where the stations will be based and a decision is expected by the end of the year.

Chris Dawes, secretary of the Whitmore Heath and Baldwin's Gate HS2 Action Group, is opposed to the current plan which would see a 50-metre tunnel created under his Whitmore Heath home. But he said if HS2 goes ahead, he would rather see the route altered and a hub created in Stoke-on-Trent.

The retired Michelin executive, who lives at Heath Rise, said: "I would be delighted if the route was to change, not just for me personally but for Stoke-on-Trent. But unfortunately I think they have already made up their minds."

Read more: http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/Fear...tory-20641467-detail/story.html#ixzz2tZPpcNul

Naturally the Local BBC News have run with the opposite :roll:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-26217552

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Naturally the Local BBC News have run with the opposite :roll:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-26217552

Are you really surprised by this BBC decision..

 

[Kettledrum]

Completely rebuilding the station on the current site has the disadvantage of heavily disrupting the main hub of the entire WCML. Building their station idea a short distance down the line, with a suitable metro system to connect it to the centre of Crewe, would have much of the same benefit at much reduced monetary and disruption cost.

There's a reason Crewe station was built where it is, even though it's a mile outside the town centre. It's simply the point where 6 lines meet. The point is approx. 500 metres long.

Crewe to Chester
Crewe to Manchester
Crewe to Liverpool
Crewe to Shrewsbury
Crewe to Stafford
Crewe to Stoke-on-Trent.

I'm afraid the suggestions to move the station literally miss the point.

There's loads of development land around the station site for new housing and businesses. There's even two extremely long platforms that have been unused since the station was remodelled approx. 20 years ago.

Stoke doesn't have this connectivity or spare station capacity at all.

 

[edwin_m]

A station in the Basford Hall area could still serve all three northern routes by passing through the existing station. It would lie on the Stafford route and the Shrewsbury route has a west-to-south curve into Basford Hall which could be adapted (although trains between this route and Manchester or Chester would have to reverse). As I posted above, the curve towards Basford Hall from the Stoke route was removed in the 1980s remodelling and the formation now appears to be blocked, but someone suggested an alternative new alignment.

Not that I'm necessarily saying it's a good idea, just that connecting it to the existing routes isn't as bad as it first appears.