Will the Rail Network be re-nationalised?

[schmoo_smith]

Ok so I have been reading up and wondering about this for a few weeks now. Will British Rail ever rise again?

 

[me123]

I don't think it's likely in the near future, but it is possible that the franchises will be replaced at some point. Probably mostly because the franchises aren't doing a fantastic job at working together.

 

[Nick W]

No, not until the billions of £ Network Rail owes is paid back.

 

[Callufrax]

Depends on whether another franchise goes belly up, like GNER did. If it did happen again, then the existing franchises might be allowed to run their course, and then revert to public ownership. There would probably be too many legal issues, otherwise.

 

[Mintona]

Yes. But not for a very long time. (Just my thoughts)

 

[adambro]

Yes. But not for a very long time. (Just my thoughts)

My thinking as well.

 

[devon_metro]

I don't want it to be nationalised.

It would be run by the DafT and every franchise they touch is affected!

FGW/SWT/EMT

fare rises, crap stock etc.

It would be a mess.

 

[Mintona]

We didn't say we wanted it to Liam. We said it probably will be in time.

 

[First ScotRail]

I cant see nationalisation but I can see franchises combined again and can see something like only 5 left.

 

[me123]

I cant see nationalisation but I can see franchises combined again and can see something like only 5 left.

If that happens, the franchises will probably be: Intercity, Scotrail, London Commuter, North of London, South of London.

Actually, not a bad deal, keeping everything similar.

 

[Tom]

If that happens, the franchises will probably be: Intercity, Scotrail, London Commuter, North of London, South of London.

Actually, not a bad deal, keeping everything similar.

How about Network South East, Regional Railways, Scotrail and Intercity...

Oh....

 

[class 313]

Depends on whether another franchise goes belly up, like GNER did. If it did happen again, then the existing franchises might be allowed to run their course, and then revert to public ownership. There would probably be too many legal issues, otherwise.

Well you could of said that with South Eastern. When Connex lost Connex South Eastern, the SRA took over it until GoVia ran it. Even if another TOC goes tits up, I can't see the entire network re-nationalized.

 

[Tom]

The SRA's preferred method of "TOC going tits up" is management contracts now I'm afraid Loader.

 

[metrocammel]

How about Network South East, Regional Railways, Scotrail and Intercity...

Oh....

I think grouping into sectors is sensible. At the moment, it is rather confusing - for example "East Midland Trains" covers a very large area, but they are still fundamentally split into "Intercity" and "Reggie Rail", I think drawing geographical boundaries and lumping what is within them to one franchise is wrong. When you think about it, the "original franchises", were effectivley the BR sectors, eg, North Western Trains was RRNW, ATN was RRNE, Virgin WC was ICWC, Southern was Network South Central & South East became Connex etc etc... Now, since the many franchise shake-ups, it is very convoluted, and probably reduces the chance of any "British Rail" style nationalisation in the future. Nationalisation would have it's benefits, as a public service, such as transportation services, should be run with the interest of the public in mind, not the TOC shareholders. After having an historically "pro-nationalisation" labour govnt for the last 10 years, with no hint of re-nationalisation , it think "born-again British Rail" very unlikely! Another argument is, how long do we think labour have left in power??? I can't see them lasting much longer, especially with a damp squib like Mr. Brown at the helm.

 

[87015]

When you think about it, the "original franchises", were effectivley the BR sectors, eg, North Western Trains was RRNW, ATN was RRNE, Virgin WC was ICWC, Southern was Network South Central & South East became Connex etc etc...

Of course that pattern occured, it was split up into those 'shadow franchises' from the original sectors so that just that would occur matey!

 

[Metroland]

It's never going to be renationalised, forget it. Nationalisation suited a particular era after the great depression and Second World War, a socialist ideal which made most industries pretty second rate. Sorry that’s the truth.

There is no evidence that governments look after assets any better than private companies, just look at the lost data discs or forthcoming cock-ups with the Olympics. There are examples of first-rate nationalised railways, such as Deutsche Bahn and Swiss Federal railways, and examples of some pretty poor ones.

One thing BR was good at was cost control, but, it must be remembered at the time track layouts were being cut back, cheap and nasty trains like pacers were introduced, salaries were low, and stations went for countless years without a lick of paint. For customer service, among lots of other things, BR was very second rate.

It's good management that produces results, and a steady flow of investment, that is the lesson from all of this.

Nationalisation died out in the 1970s went the country was held to ransom by the unions. Numerous industries were hopeless uncompetitive, and, with the advent of cheap containerised freight transport it made foreign imports cheaper and more completive. By the end of the 1970s, the UK went ‘cap-in-hand’ to the IMF to stop us going bankrupt. Then the great ‘privatisations’ began to raise money for the exchequer.

The railway privatisation structure was fairly poor, and even its architects have admitted so. But the fact remains, the politician’s great God’s - Economists - for the most part, simply don’t favour nationalisation in today’s business environment. Liberalisation is the by-word, and many railways and other businesses in Europe are being privatised.

Now there is a lot wrong with market forces, especially when it comes to essential services and the environment, but for the foreseeable future there is no political party who are going to nationalise any business in the UK.

 

[Nick W]

It's never going to be renationalised, forget it. Nationalisation suited a particular era after the great depression and Second World War, a socialist ideal which made most industries pretty second rate. Sorry that’s the truth.

Agreed

There is no evidence that governments look after assets any better than private companies, just look at the lost data discs or forthcoming cock-ups with the Olympics. There are examples of first-rate nationalised railways, such as Deutsche Bahn and Swiss Federal railways, and examples of some pretty poor ones.

But if the same people who would otherwise run a private company ran a nationalised industry and received bonuses relating to performance, I think there would be every equal chance of assets being looked after. I'm looking at Network Rail as an essentially nationalised industry with very few staff changes after Railtrack split up, and an example of something that could be expanded to the whole railway. You could argue that this isn't full nationalisation, but it removes the need to please shareholders and allows more government regulation.

One thing BR was good at was cost control, but, it must be remembered at the time track layouts were being cut back, cheap and nasty trains like pacers were introduced, salaries were low, and stations went for countless years without a lick of paint. For customer service, among lots of other things, BR was very second rate.

The track layout rationalisation was definitely short-sighted, as you said, but could probably have been justified at the time, since passenger numbers weren't expected to increase so greatly, and may have saved other line closures. I'm aware that the decision may have cost a few £ billion if all the track gets rebuilt in the future, though.

It's good management that produces results, and a steady flow of investment, that is the lesson from all of this.

Agreed, let's hope all lessons have been learnt.

Nationalisation died out in the 1970s went the country was held to ransom by the unions. Numerous industries were hopeless uncompetitive, and, with the advent of cheap containerised freight transport it made foreign imports cheaper and more completive. By the end of the 1970s, the UK went ‘cap-in-hand’ to the IMF to stop us going bankrupt. Then the great ‘privatisations’ began to raise money for the exchequer.

Perhaps raising pay and improving conditions may have cost far less than privatisation, even if it did mean a lot of subsidy similar to that given to farms and local businesses around the EU.

The railway privatisation structure was fairly poor, and even its architects have admitted so. But the fact remains, the politician’s great God’s - Economists - for the most part, simply don’t favour nationalisation in today’s business environment. Liberalisation is the by-word, and many railways and other businesses in Europe are being privatised.

Economics can't be applied to everything though, and hopefully it won't be applied to transport. Certainly privatisation of the NHS or states schools isn't about to happen. Nor are we going to implement unethical fascist policies that could be argued by economics.

Now there is a lot wrong with market forces, especially when it comes to essential services and the environment, but for the foreseeable future there is no political party who are going to nationalise any business in the UK.

While I would agree, let's see how Northern Rock and Metronet end up.