London Transport, last Xmas Day workings, c1973

[Mike99]

Hi,
Was Christmas Day 1973 the last time services operated on routes akin to normal rest of year services, or was it later? (or earlier). My memory is failing me................
Regards
Mike

 

[Antman]

Yes I think that is correct

 

[CatfordCat]

I think it was a few years later than that - possibly c. 1978/9, but I don't have anything to hand to refer to (I have somewhere got one or two staff timetables for the Christmas period but they aren't here)

The Christmas Day service was quite limited - from memory, several garages didn't open at all, and a limited service was operated - perhaps half if that of all routes, and in some cases a truncated service.

And the services only ran from about 0800 to 1630 - I think there was an agreement going back to London General days that all buses had to be back in their box by a certain time.

Think the Underground was similar.

 

[Busaholic]

I wonder what the chances are of bringing back some limited Christmas Day services. So many staff are not of the Christian faith, or ostensibly so, so if it was done on a voluntary basis they might get plenty of volunteers. A dozen or so routes could provide the rudiments of service within central London and parts of inner London (for instance 10, 11,13,18,25,36,38,94,98,149 and 159

 

[duncanp]

I am pretty certain that 1979 was the last year that services operated on Christmas Day.

The service was limited and only ran until about 17:00, and many stations did not open at all.

That said, in the late 1990s and up until 25th December 2000, some bus services operated on a commercial basis, with £3 flat fares.

The routes that I can remember were

712 : Hammersmith - Peckham
714 : Earls Court - Trafalgar Square
716 : Trafalgar Square - Cricklewood
729 : Wood Green - Streatham

and another route from Morden/Wimbledon to Trafalgar Square where I can't remember the number.

Services started about 10am and ran every 30 minutes until 6 or 7pm.

Personally I would like to see a skeleton service brought back on Christmas Day.

One possibility is that all night or 24 hour routes could operate a services from late on Christmas Eve to early on Boxing Day. This would ensure that most people are within reach of a bus route.

Lothian Buses in Edinburgh run a skeleton service on Christmas Day, with services running hourly on the more important routes from about 11am to 9 or 10pm, including a service to the Royal Infirmary, so that people can get to visit relatives in hospital. The lack of transport to such important destinations on Christmas Day can cause real problems for some people.

 

[Mike99]

Hi,
I think all answers are probably correct, 1973 for what was the 'established' Christmas Day services that had operated for many years, and the reply about 1979 with those slightly different services 7xx route numbers has jogged my memory.
I'm sure I recall seeing a Peckham allocated Route 12 on Christmas Day possibly in 1972 or 1973 in Penge and I'm sure going to Norwood Junction but as in my earlier post my memory seems to be failing.
Elmers End was certainly one garage that closed.
Christmas 1983 I was a Garage Inspector, nights in TC over the holiday, after the last duty paid in about 01.15 ish (last Route 130 I think) on Christmas Eve night into Christmas Day morning, I had to balance the books like normal then lock the 'output' up and leave the keys with the Night Foreman, another GI then opened up early on Boxing Day morning for the first duties to sign on and I went back in on nights Boxing Day evening.

 

[Busaholic]

Hi,
I think all answers are probably correct, 1973 for what was the 'established' Christmas Day services that had operated for many years, and the reply about 1979 with those slightly different services 7xx route numbers has jogged my memory.
I'm sure I recall seeing a Peckham allocated Route 12 on Christmas Day possibly in 1972 or 1973 in Penge and I'm sure going to Norwood Junction but as in my earlier post my memory seems to be failing.
Elmers End was certainly one garage that closed.
Christmas 1983 I was a Garage Inspector, nights in TC over the holiday, after the last duty paid in about 01.15 ish (last Route 130 I think) on Christmas Eve night into Christmas Day morning, I had to balance the books like normal then lock the 'output' up and leave the keys with the Night Foreman, another GI then opened up early on Boxing Day morning for the first duties to sign on and I went back in on nights Boxing Day evening.

My memory from early 1970s (please allow for decrepitude) is that each Xmas Day route was only operated by one garage, not always one that operated it on a Sunday. Was Penge, Pawleyne Arms not the extent on Christmas Day? I think the 75 was running through to Croydon. The 630 trolleybus route used to get a Christmas Day only allocation from Carshalton depot up to 1958. As always, happy to be corrected, at least it shows someone is reading!

 

[Robertj21a]

I wonder what the chances are of bringing back some limited Christmas Day services. So many staff are not of the Christian faith, or ostensibly so, so if it was done on a voluntary basis they might get plenty of volunteers. A dozen or so routes could provide the rudiments of service within central London and parts of inner London (for instance 10, 11,13,18,25,36,38,94,98,149 and 159

Long overdue. I'm surprised that TfL has got away with it for so long with absolutely no services at all when many people in London don't recognise Christmas anyway.

 

[CatfordCat]

I am fairly sure that the 7xx routes happened in the late 80s / 90s - after the 'traditional' London Transport had started to fragment, and that there was a hiatus of some years after Christmas Day workings on traditional routes had ceased before these started.

I have found one or two references on web forums / press articles to London last having bus / underground on Christmas Day in 1979.

Yes, the CN operation on the 630 was quite well known - it ran with RTs on Christmas Day 1959 after CN lost its trolleybuses - photo here - although they did not show a route number (for reasons that have been lost in the mists of time, although it is generally thought that someone had a minor panic about the idea of a bus showing a trolleybus route number - such considerations had presumably been settled when for a while HT put out RMs on their Sunday allocation to the 609 which continued for the short while between HT ceasing to operate trolleybuses and the route - mainly operated by FY - being converted to bus.)

As for each route only being one garage - can't be sure of this. There were certainly some odd allocations, and some garages that didn't open - I recall the 47 was just Shoreditch - Lewisham and operated by Dalston, as neither TL or TB opened on Christmas Day.

 

[Mike99]

My memory from early 1970s (please allow for decrepitude) is that each Xmas Day route was only operated by one garage, not always one that operated it on a Sunday. Was Penge, Pawleyne Arms not the extent on Christmas Day? I think the 75 was running through to Croydon. The 630 trolleybus route used to get a Christmas Day only allocation from Carshalton depot up to 1958. As always, happy to be corrected, at least it shows someone is reading!

Boxing Day the 12's terminated at Pawleyne Arms, Penge certainly during the late 70's

 

[duncanp]

The route which ran from Trafalgar Square to Morden and Wimbledon was the 755.

I used the bus to go from Harringay Green Lanes to Morden on Christmas Day 2000, using the 729 and the 755.

I do think that there is some demand for transport on Christmas Day. Perhaps a skeleton service on the buses could be sponsored, just like the all night services on New Years Eve. I think it is worth having an experiment for one year just to see what happens.

At the very least TfL could have a consultation to find out people's views.

 

[Antman]

Hi,
I think all answers are probably correct, 1973 for what was the 'established' Christmas Day services that had operated for many years, and the reply about 1979 with those slightly different services 7xx route numbers has jogged my memory.
I'm sure I recall seeing a Peckham allocated Route 12 on Christmas Day possibly in 1972 or 1973 in Penge and I'm sure going to Norwood Junction but as in my earlier post my memory seems to be failing.
Elmers End was certainly one garage that closed.
Christmas 1983 I was a Garage Inspector, nights in TC over the holiday, after the last duty paid in about 01.15 ish (last Route 130 I think) on Christmas Eve night into Christmas Day morning, I had to balance the books like normal then lock the 'output' up and leave the keys with the Night Foreman, another GI then opened up early on Boxing Day morning for the first duties to sign on and I went back in on nights Boxing Day evening.

I was refering too established routes although there have been commercial services since.

 

[duncombec]

That said, in the late 1990s and up until 25th December 2000, some bus services operated on a commercial basis, with £3 flat fares.

The routes that I can remember were

712 : Hammersmith - Peckham
714 : Earls Court - Trafalgar Square
716 : Trafalgar Square - Cricklewood
729 : Wood Green - Streatham

and another route from Morden/Wimbledon to Trafalgar Square where I can't remember the number.

Services started about 10am and ran every 30 minutes until 6 or 7pm.

I still have a leaflet for services on 25/12/2001, and services (with earliest departure and latest arrivals were as follows):

712: Peckham - Hammersmith, every 30 minutes (09:02 and 20:27 @ Hammersmith) by Metroline
714: Earl's Court - Russell Square, every 15-20 minutes* (10:00 @ Earl's Court, 18:50 @ Russell Square), by Metroline
715: Shepherd's Bush - Tower Bridge, every 30 minutes (08:50 and 20:05 @ Shepherd's Bush), by London Central
716: Willesden - Trafalgar Square, every 30 minutes Trafalgar Square to Paddington and Hourly to Willesden* (10:00 and 18:14 @ Willesden Bus Garage), by Metroline
729: Wood Green - Streatham, every 30 minutes* (08:45 and 20:05 @ Wood Green), by London Central
755: Morden or Wimbledon - St Pauls, every 30 minutes* (08:07 and 19:10 @ Morden), by Northdown Motor Services.

*: 714 was every 20 minutes until 13:40 departure ex Earl's Court, then every 15 until 15:40, then 16:00, 16:20, 16:40, 16:50, 17:20, 17:50, 18:20. Some PM journeys short to/from Trafalgar Square only. 716 had some odd journeys towards start and end of service extend the 30 minute frequency to Maida Vale. 755 was odd, with alternate journeys running to Morden or Wimbledon hourly, then half hourly from South Wimbledon to Trafalgar Square. Odd journeys extended to St Paul's (7 of the 18 offered, but no regular frequency).

Hope that helps someone!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I wonder what the chances are of bringing back some limited Christmas Day services. So many staff are not of the Christian faith, or ostensibly so, so if it was done on a voluntary basis they might get plenty of volunteers. A dozen or so routes could provide the rudiments of service within central London and parts of inner London (for instance 10, 11,13,18,25,36,38,94,98,149 and 159

This is more likely down to cost. There will be plenty of volunteers if the 'price is right' and that cost would have to be met somewhere either by charging premium fares for the day or by the taxpayer.
Where Christmas day services are provided (like on Merseyside) the council meets the cost and services that operate are free to all users.
In London it would be more difficult to justify operating those services.
As for commercial services when they last operated I believe they had a flat fare of £5 (no cards, passes, concessions etc) and that was a few years back and at such fares (probably be more like a tenner now) they got very few takers.

 

[Antman]

This is more likely down to cost. There will be plenty of volunteers if the 'price is right' and that cost would have to be met somewhere either by charging premium fares for the day or by the taxpayer.
Where Christmas day services are provided (like on Merseyside) the council meets the cost and services that operate are free to all users.
In London it would be more difficult to justify operating those services.
As for commercial services when they last operated I believe they had a flat fare of £5 (no cards, passes, concessions etc) and that was a few years back and at such fares (probably be more like a tenner now) they got very few takers.

According to reports and photographs I've seen these buses were very well used even at a premium fare.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wonder what the chances are of bringing back some limited Christmas Day services. So many staff are not of the Christian faith, or ostensibly so, so if it was done on a voluntary basis they might get plenty of volunteers. A dozen or so routes could provide the rudiments of service within central London and parts of inner London (for instance 10, 11,13,18,25,36,38,94,98,149 and 159

I agree in principal but there would then be complaints from people who don't get a service and where does it end? Nothing serving Camden Town for example in your list.

 

[Busaholic]

According to reports and photographs I've seen these buses were very well used even at a premium fare.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I agree in principal but there would then be complaints from people who don't get a service and where does it end? Nothing serving Camden Town for example in your list.

On that last point, I had a think after my post about the routes I suggested and would definitely add the 29 and possibly the 14, with the latter slightly truncated at outer end and maybe at inner end too. I also think the 149 is a marginal one but any more and it would be hard to know where to end. There are a lot of tourists staying in central London hotels at Christmas and with no tube on Xmas Day surely a basic bus service should be provided. One last point on 'my' routes:- the 98 should do what it recently did when the 7 was cut back owing to Crossrail work and be diverted to Russell Square with those tourists in mind.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On sponsorship, maybe the Federation of Hotels or whoever could be persuaded to cough up. Free travel might then be possible and would be good P.R. for them and London as a city to help counteract 'the most expensive capital city' tag, particularly on the transport side,

 

[Mutant Lemming]

According to reports and photographs I've seen these buses were very well used even at a premium fare.


.

They weren't from what I saw - and even if they were then it seems apparent they were not commerically viable enough otherwise they would still be running.

 

[Antman]

There were other reasons as to why commercial Christmas Day service stopped, it certainly wasn't because of any lack of demand

 

[Mutant Lemming]

There were other reasons as to why commercial Christmas Day service stopped, it certainly wasn't because of any lack of demand

If 'other reasons' prevent commercial operators from providing a public service without subsidy where there is a 'clear' demand then why not raise this with the mayor ?

Why not just reclassify Christmas Day as just another Bank Holiday then we can operate a standard bank hoilday timetable. Then we'll have people on here arguing about how much a waste of money it is to have empty buses and trains running round with nobody on them - although then maybe we could just recalssify Christmas Day as a normal working day for everyone then there would be justification in running a full weekday service.

 

[Busaholic]

It would hardly be surprising if those commercial services weren't well-used. In those (almost) pre-internet days how would most people, other than bus enthusiasts, have known about them, let alone found routeings, timetables, etc? A sponsored, limited service has got to be worth a try, even if just the once initially to gauge whether it's worth continuing or, even, expanding in future years.

 

[Antman]

A Christmas Day service is justified on the Isle of Wight so surely it is in London?

There have been suggestions that the night bus network should run on Christmas Day.

 

[Deerfold]

There were other reasons as to why commercial Christmas Day service stopped, it certainly wasn't because of any lack of demand

Care to share what they were?

There have been suggestions that the night bus network should run on Christmas Day.

That'd be over 100 routes - quite a steep first step.

 

[Antman]

Care to share what they were?



That'd be over 100 routes - quite a steep first step.

Something to do with TfL, I can't remember the full story but basically they don't want to run a service themselves and have now prevented others from doing so.

Yes I think running the nightbus network on Christmas Day would be a bit excessive.

And maybe there should be at least some service on London Underground like there is on the Paris Metro for example?

 

[Deerfold]

Something to do with TfL, I can't remember the full story but basically they don't want to run a service themselves and have now prevented others from doing so.

Although TfL do have the power to grant licenses to run bus routes in London they are not allowed to withold them unreasonably - I'd be surprised if TfL stopped anyone running on Christmas Day. I suspect that the increased staff and promotion costs were enough to prevent operations being profitable.

For a few years the Oxford Tube has run on Christmas Day, every hour in 2014 (up from every 2 hours in earlier years) between Victoria and Oxford, but also stopping at Heathrow. A single was £30, with a local Victoria - Heathrow single being £10. This will have required a license for the day from TfL.

http://www.stagecoachbus.com/uploads/christmas1314v4.pdf

 

[Be3G]

It would hardly be surprising if those commercial services weren't well-used. In those (almost) pre-internet days how would most people, other than bus enthusiasts, have known about them, let alone found routeings, timetables, etc?

Details about the buses were given in the festive travel booklets which TfL used to print until a few years ago – every tube station would always have plenty of copies.

As for TfL making life difficult for the operators to run the services, I haven't heard anything specifically regarding the Christmas Day buses, but reading around I have certainly got the idea that TfL have been making it progressively more difficult during the past decade for operators to run commercial services in the city. How they've been doing that though, I don't know.

 

[Deerfold]

As for TfL making life difficult for the operators to run the services, I haven't heard anything specifically regarding the Christmas Day buses, but reading around I have certainly got the idea that TfL have been making it progressively more difficult during the past decade for operators to run commercial services in the city. How they've been doing that though, I don't know.

I think the main way is by having fares too low for commercial companies to profit if they charge the same - and looking expensive if they charge more.

Tour companies run just fine - as do many special event services - all licensed by TfL.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/lsp-bulletin.pdf

 

[duncombec]

Although TfL do have the power to grant licenses to run bus routes in London they are not allowed to withold them unreasonably - I'd be surprised if TfL stopped anyone running on Christmas Day. I suspect that the increased staff and promotion costs were enough to prevent operations being profitable.

For a few years the Oxford Tube has run on Christmas Day, every hour in 2014 (up from every 2 hours in earlier years) between Victoria and Oxford, but also stopping at Heathrow. A single was £30, with a local Victoria - Heathrow single being £10. This will have required a license for the day from TfL.

http://www.stagecoachbus.com/uploads/christmas1314v4.pdf

I too was under the impression - from what I remember of discussion at the time - that it was the authorities who had decided they were no longer willing to allow services to operate on Christmas Day.

I would assume the difference between these services and the Oxford Tube is that the OT has a license for every other day of the year, and this is an adjustment to an existing service (even if registered with the application, it still operates every other day of the year). Similarly, I believe London General can run to Gatwick because TfL refusing a license would cause the operator to be in breach of contract with the rail operator. By contrast, the services as provided up to 2001 are brand new, separate services that are operated for one day alone - and TfL could plausibly reject their operation for a number of reasons.

A full list of services currently granted an LSP is here:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/lsp-bulletin.pdf

 

[Be3G]

I think the main way is by having fares too low for commercial companies to profit if they charge the same - and looking expensive if they charge more.

I'm not sure it's as simple as that. I remember when roughly a decade and a half ago Enfield (the borough, not specifically the town) had various commercial routes operating in/through it, including a few routes that went out to Hertfordshire. They seemed to do reasonably well at the time, and presumably attracted Londoners' patronage by serving roads that TfL didn't serve, and providing direct bus links to places outside London. These routes have sadly now all but disappeared.

 

[Deerfold]

I'm not sure it's as simple as that. I remember when roughly a decade and a half ago Enfield (the borough, not specifically the town) had various commercial routes operating in/through it, including a few routes that went out to Hertfordshire. They seemed to do reasonably well at the time, and presumably attracted Londoners' patronage by serving roads that TfL didn't serve, and providing direct bus links to places outside London. These routes have sadly now all but disappeared.

15 years ago London Buses run at (or very close to) a profit. So other operators could charge the same fares and still make money.

I would assume the difference between these services and the Oxford Tube is that the OT has a license for every other day of the year, and this is an adjustment to an existing service (even if registered with the application, it still operates every other day of the year). Similarly, I believe London General can run to Gatwick because TfL refusing a license would cause the operator to be in breach of contract with the rail operator. By contrast, the services as provided up to 2001 are brand new, separate services that are operated for one day alone - and TfL could plausibly reject their operation for a number of reasons.

Such as? They're not allowed to unreasonably decline an application. There's plenty of services that only run on one day. It's not long ago that some of the tour companies ran a reduced service on Christmas day - certainly after 2001 (but on seperate licenses as the routes were different to those they normally ran).

A full list of services currently granted an LSP is here:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/lsp-bulletin.pdf

Looks familiar

 

[Busaholic]

Perhaps the Traffic Commissioner, S.E. should be charged with the responsibility just for the one day a year of deciding which services should operate and who'd be allowed to (existing licensed operators only). Only a slightly tongue-in-cheek suggestion, if this was being seriously mooted I bet TfL would stir out of their lethargy and come up with their own scheme.
As to the idea of operating night bus routes on Christmas Day, apart from the sheer scale of the operation these days, they are geared to getting people home from nights out in the West End/Camden and having a bus jam around Trafalgar Square would cause negative publicity. More important to have some links to hotels and the Teaching Hospitals like the London, St Mary's Paddington, St Thomas's and UCH to enable visitors to those unfortunate people who have to spend Christmas there.